All Israel will be saved!

[nanasimmons]

Especially when it deals with the subject of Israel of the FLESH.......

That is the only Israel there is. The bible NEVER uses Israel to mean anything else.

I reject the idea that the unbelieving Jews, the ones who will never except Christ as there Savior and I'm sure many will worship the beast, will get a free pass into the 1000 yr. reign or heaven just because they are Jewish...But you would have me believe that even though Paul defines clearly who a Jew is, and it is not those who are Jews outwardly, but inwardly.......You say these are God's chosen people???

The idea that Jews are the "fake" Israel and the church is the "true Israel" is not communicated in the New Testament. Neither is the notion that God created the Church to be a sepaate entity apart from Israel.

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1..."When he arose, he took the young child and His mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son." Matt. 2:14,15

What I am saying is that any one who is not in The Body Of Christ are not children of God....If we are in The Body of Christ then we are God's children, and Abraham's children.......

Jews, Jewish believers and Gentile believers are three sub sets of Israel and we see this borne out in Paul's olive tree metaphor.

Jesus makes it clear in John 8, that one can be a natural seed of Abraham....and not a child of Abraham or a child of God....but a child of the devil..... In Romans 4 Paul spells out that the chosen gentiles have always been considered to be Abraham's seeds....The promise might be sure to all the seed:.....

The reason the metaphor is so confusing is because people are trying to interpret it in the light of the current situation. If the Church is grafted into Israel (and the olive tree IS Israel) then how does it remain a separate entity? Paul was not going about preaching a new religion, but rather saw the coming of the Messiah to be fulfillment of his Jewish faith. Jesus was not termination of Paul's Jewishness, but rather the augmentation of it.

In John 15:1-6 Jesus says He is the Vine and we are the branches....

Paul in this metaphor, views the Gentiles as being grafted into Israel. He does not declare a new Israel or a "True Israel" or any of that unbiblical stuff. The metaphor of the olive tree is simple to understand when you interpret like a person living in the 1st century, before the Gentiles split themselves off and decided THEY were Israel and that they were the "true Israel." It is that arrogance that Paul warned about, but that warning has largely been ignored.

I believe that what Paul saying in Romans 11:1-7 is that he is living proof that God has Not cast away any of His true children which He foreknew....because he(Paul) was a seed of Abraham an Israelite and in the Body Of Christ, as were many other remnant Jews who were then, and continued through out history, and even as we speak all of 'The Israel of God' is coming together as one, into the Body Of Christ......Where there is neither Jew or Gentile but a New creature in Christ Jesus........

[Guest]

You say these are God's chosen people???

Amen!

What God Say.....

ISRAEL Today and Tomorrow

All Dem Bones

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 37:1-14

We Maybe Unfaithful But The Lion of Judah Is Faithful.

He Is Coming Back For His Israel

All Nations Will Gather Against Her.

All Nations Will Feel His Wrath.

His Is Faithful!

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Even So Come Quickly Lord Jesus!

Love, Joe

I know it brother, brother,

Indeed I know it brother, I know it - HEY!

Dem bones gonna rise again.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/song/song-469.asp

And All God's Children Say "Hallelujah To The KING of The Jews"

Amen! Amen! Amen!

[Guest]

Labor Of Tears

He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

Psalms 126:6

Labor Of Love

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isaiah 62:6-7

Jacob had 12 sons, from these 12 sons we get the 12 tribes. One son was named Judah. From him came the Jews. Christ was a direct decedent of Judah. This is why he is called the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Tomorrow's News Today.

Looking Into The Most Wonderful Book.

Looking To See If All Other Tribes Are Forgotten By The One Called Faithful.

Oh!

How Did God Know We Might Have Questions About The Twelve Tribes.

Is He Lord of Time Too.

Look!

They Are Not Forgotten!

Jesus Is Faithful!

They Will All Be Together.

The Lion Of Judah

Sitting On The Throne Of David

In The City Of David

Ruling All Israel

Forever!

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Joined Together Forever!

The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezekiel 37:15-28

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Since all of creation came from Adam and Eve, and then Noah, wouldnt that make every single person alive, part Jewish?

No

I was serious, but thanks for laughing in my face.

Giaour, the reason I laugh is that you and I have discussed this before, and I have answered your questions and you received my answer (or so you said), and now you pose the question again, as if you don't really know. So I am kind of taken aback that you would ask such silly question. I am musing at the time I wasted a few months ago, staying up late trying to patiently explain all of this. So yeah, I have to laugh at such nonsense coming from someone who said they supposedly "learned" so much.

[methinkshe]

If ALL Israel is to be saved, i.e. every single person who ever lived who was born Jewish, then why do we bother to preach the Gospel to the Jewish people? They are/will be saved anyway. And what about all the OT Jews who were wicked and evil and definitely were not saved? It seems to me that "ALL" needs to be qualified in terms of immediate context and the whole counsel of Scripture. Is it not that Paul was speaking of the remnant, the little flock so often referred to in the OT, those to whom righteousness is imputed through faith in the Messiah (Hebrews 11?) who are around at the time of "the fullness of the Gentiles" which is, I believe, post-rapture, and it is then that the faithful remnant of Israel will be saved?

My Uncle is Jewish and he is the most Jesus-hating man I know. Mind you, he's an observant Jew. Synagogue on the Sabbath, Kosher food etc etc. He's also ungracious, foul-mouthed, quarrelsome, unforgiving etc. He totally rejects Jesus and has only bad words to say concerning Him and those who follow Jesus. I do not for one moment believe that when Paul said: "...and so all Israel will be saved," that he included those, like my uncle, who go to their deaths rejecting Jesus, their Messiah.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Guest shiloh357]

I

reject the idea that the unbelieving Jews, the ones who will never except Christ as there Savior and I'm sure many will worship the beast, will get a free pass into the 1000 yr. reign or heaven just because they are Jewish

That's interesting because I never said that. Please copy, paste and or post a link where I said anything like that, or withdraw that false charge. Nana, if you are going to debate with me, you could at least possesss enough Christ-like integrity to properly represent my position, and not attribute values to my position that I did not express. Am I asking too much from you?

But you would have me believe that even though Paul defines clearly who a Jew is, and it is not those who are Jews outwardly, but inwardly.......You say these are God's chosen people???

Paul does not define a Jew as anyone who believes in Jesus. Again, you have to rip verses from their natural context to arrive at that conclusion. Your position has real bibliclal foundation and relies on sloppy theology, not to mention that your interpertation results in a very unchrist-like spirit from you that includes bearing false witness against me. The fact that you feel you have to resort to attributing false statements to my arguments as I mentioned above, only highlights how bankrupt your postion really is.

Whether or not the Jews are the chosen people has nothing to do with Millennium, or salvation. "Chosen" does not equal "saved." Part of the problem with this entire subject is we have people like you, who are trying to argue about concepts they don't even understand, or cannot not accurately define. Their subjective, made-up "definitions" become the founding premise upon which they build their argument. Their inability to approach the issue with any objectivety or accuracy, contributes to a great deal of misunderstanding.

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1..."When he arose, he took the young child and His mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son." Matt. 2:14,15

What I am saying is that any one who is not in The Body Of Christ are not children of God....If we are in The Body of Christ then we are God's children, and Abraham's children.......

The New Testament nowhere says that the Jewish people are no longer the descendents or seed of Abraham. YOU have it set in your mind that it has to be "either/or." You have it set in your mind that only Christians can be Abraham's seed, and that is not a position the New Testament takes. YOU reject the Jews, YOU cast off the Jews, and you are trying to read your "theology" into the New Testament. You are trying to make the Bible line up with YOUR rejection of the Jewish peopple as the chsoen people and the seed of Abraham. God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and his physical descendents and He reiterates this over and over again in Scripture, and you are trying to say this eternal covenant is null and void.

This highlights why it is near impossible to reach Jews for Christ. Christians have such an arrogance; such an attitude that looks at Jews like they are dirt, but yet people wonder why they reject Christ. Christians castigate the Jews for their unbelief, and in doing so foment a spiritually antagonistic environment that makes it impossible for Jews to receive Christ.

Jesus makes it clear in John 8, that one can be a natural seed of Abraham....and not a child of Abraham or a child of God....but a child of the devil..... In Romans 4 Paul spells out that the chosen gentiles have always been considered to be Abraham's seeds....The promise might be sure to all the seed:.....

Try reading the passage a little closer. When Jesus called his audience "children of the devil," He was not referring to the Jewish people en masse. He was speaking to His detractors among the pharisees. You need to identify the audience at the moment. Jesus was not speaking to or about all Israel. He was speaking to one group of people and they were His enemies. The audience is limited, and therefore your interpretation of the passage needs to be likwise as limited.

If someone disagrees with US "policy" and they criticize the US on this or that, are they criticizing every American? No, they are criticizing our government. "US" can be understood in a limited fashion to exclude the common citizen. That is the understanding that needs to be applied to John, especially in chapter 8. That is why we need hermeneutics. Basic interpretation skills would avoid such nonsense as implying that Jews, or ANYONE for that matter are "children of the devil." Again, calling people "children of the devil" does not promote an environment where they would be willing or open to hearing the gospel. What you have demonstrate is a very irresponsible and counter-productive approach where the preaching of the gospel is concerned.

QUOTE

The reason the metaphor is so confusing is because people are trying to interpret it in the light of the current situation. If the Church is grafted into Israel (and the olive tree IS Israel) then how does it remain a separate entity? Paul was not going about preaching a new religion, but rather saw the coming of the Messiah to be fulfillment of his Jewish faith. Jesus was not termination of Paul's Jewishness, but rather the augmentation of it.

In John 15:1-6 Jesus says He is the Vine and we are the branches....

Yes, but now you are mixing metaphors. One metaphor is of a vine, the other is an olive tree. You need to keep the metaphors separate, as they are used to communicate different truths. The olive tree is not Jesus, and is not ever identified as Jesus, whereas Jesus clearly identifies himself as a vine. Jesus, however was dealing with different subject matter and the vine metaphor accurately illustrates the point He was making. Jesus was illustrating our relationship with Him as our source of supply for all that we need with respect to living and operating for Him in the Kingdom. Paul is illustrating the relationship between Israel and the Gentile believers.

I believe that what Paul saying in Romans 11:1-7 is that he is living proof that God has Not cast away any of His true children which He foreknew....because he(Paul) was a seed of Abraham an Israelite and in the Body Of Christ, as were many other remnant Jews who were then, and continued through out history, and even as we speak all of 'The Israel of God' is coming together as one, into the Body Of Christ......Where there is neither Jew or Gentile but a New creature in Christ Jesus........

Well where we will disagree is that I am not a Calvinist, and do not believe in Predistnation, at least not the way a pure Calvinist would understand it.

The term "Israel of God" is not defined in the manner in which you seek to define it. You are imposing a definition upon it that is simply not provided by Scripture. In fact, Paul's usage of "Israel of God" was not really an attempt to make much of a theological statement at all. Paul used "Israel" in the normal sense of the word, and in a sense that excluded the cult that deceived Galatian congregation.

[Guest shiloh357]

If ALL Israel is to be saved, i.e. every single person who ever lived who was born Jewish, then why do we bother to preach the Gospel to the Jewish people? They are/will be saved anyway. And what about all the OT Jews who were wicked and evil and definitely were not saved? It seems to me that "ALL" needs to be qualified in terms of immediate context and the whole counsel of Scripture. Is it not that Paul was speaking of the remnant, the little flock so often referred to in the OT, those to whom righteousness is imputed through faith in the Messiah (Hebrews 11?) who are around at the time of "the fullness of the Gentiles" which is, I believe, post-rapture, and it is then that the faithful remnant of Israel will be saved?

My Uncle is Jewish and he is the most Jesus-hating man I know. Mind you, he's an observant Jew. Synagogue on the Sabbath, Kosher food etc etc. He's also ungracious, foul-mouthed, quarrelsome, unforgiving etc. He totally rejects Jesus and has only bad words to say concerning Him and those who follow Jesus. I do not for one moment believe that when Paul said: "...and so all Israel will be saved," that he included those, like my uncle, who go to their deaths rejecting Jesus, their Messiah.

In Jesus,

Ruth

Who said that "all Israel" meant every single Jewish person who ever lived??? Would you copy and paste or post a link so that we can see who is forwarding such an idea?? If not, then to whom are you applying that value/argument?

[methinkshe]

If ALL Israel is to be saved, i.e. every single person who ever lived who was born Jewish, then why do we bother to preach the Gospel to the Jewish people? They are/will be saved anyway. And what about all the OT Jews who were wicked and evil and definitely were not saved? It seems to me that "ALL" needs to be qualified in terms of immediate context and the whole counsel of Scripture. Is it not that Paul was speaking of the remnant, the little flock so often referred to in the OT, those to whom righteousness is imputed through faith in the Messiah (Hebrews 11?) who are around at the time of "the fullness of the Gentiles" which is, I believe, post-rapture, and it is then that the faithful remnant of Israel will be saved?

My Uncle is Jewish and he is the most Jesus-hating man I know. Mind you, he's an observant Jew. Synagogue on the Sabbath, Kosher food etc etc. He's also ungracious, foul-mouthed, quarrelsome, unforgiving etc. He totally rejects Jesus and has only bad words to say concerning Him and those who follow Jesus. I do not for one moment believe that when Paul said: "...and so all Israel will be saved," that he included those, like my uncle, who go to their deaths rejecting Jesus, their Messiah.

In Jesus,

Ruth

Who said that "all Israel" meant every single Jewish person who ever lived??? Would you copy and paste or post a link so that we can see who is forwarding such an idea?? If not, then to whom are you applying that value/argument?

Oh dear, so sorry! I perhaps didn't read this thread carefully enough. That was the gist I picked up from those who were saying "ALL Israel will be saved." I naturally assumed that if left unqualified by near or wider context, ALL means ALL which, since God is outside of time, encompasses past, present and future. I expect it's just my faulty understanding again. I need to be careful that I read what is said and not what I THINK is being said. My very last intent was to accuse anyone of anything. Rather I was questioning and offering, for what it's worth, my understanding. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Guest shiloh357]

Oh dear, so sorry! I perhaps didn't read this thread carefully enough. That was the gist I picked up from those who were saying "ALL Israel will be saved." I naturally assumed that if left unqualified by near or wider context, ALL means ALL which, since God is outside of time, encompasses past, present and future. I expect it's just my faulty understanding again. I need to be careful that I read what is said and not what I THINK is being said. My very last intent was to accuse anyone of anything. Rather I was questioning and offering, for what it's worth, my understanding. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood.

In Jesus,

Ruth

No problem! You didn't offend anyone, I was just curious. I will be prayin for you Uncle, Ruth.

[Motivated By Grace]

When we go about trying to define "Israel," there are some important facts to keep in mind. One of the most important is that "Israel" is used the same way in the New Testament as it is used in the Old Testament.

One interesting thing is that God in the Scriptures uses the terms "Israel" and "Jacob" interchangably.

One thing that bears noting is that the names, "Israel" and "Jacob" are used interchangeably in the Word of God to refer to the physical descendents of Abraham. More to the point, "Jacob" is often used in Scripture in a representative sense with respect to the twelve tribes of Israel, and is NEVER used in the Scriptures in any fashion as a reference to the Church. While so many Christians seek to apply to themselves the mantel of "The Israel of God," I think it is important to note that Bible never makes a distinction between the names, "Israel" and "Jacob."

Here are verses and passages that demonstrate that Jacob and Israel are interchangeably with respect to the physical descendents of Abraham are: Num. 24: 5, 17, Deut. 33:4,5, 8, 9, 10, 28; 1Kings 18:31; 2Kings 17:34; 1Chron. 16:13, 17; Psa. 14:7, 22:23, 53:6, 78:5, 81:4, 106:6, 10, 23, 114:1, 135:4; Is. 9:8,10:20, 14:1, 27:6, 29:23, 40:27, 41:8, 14, 42:24, 43:1, 22, 28, 44:1, 44:2, 21, 43, 45:4, 46:3 48:1, 12, 49:6; Jer. 2:4, 30:10; Eze. 20:5; Mic. 3:1,8,9; Nah. 2:2, Rom. 11:26.

As you can see, there are just too many cases where "Israel" and "Jacob" are used interchangeably for there to be any substance to the argument that "Israel" refers to a group of people other than the physical members of the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel. As I stated earlier, the Church is never called by the name "Jacob," nor is it referred to as a spiritual "twelve tribes" or any other such concept. It is impossible for those claiming that the Christians are the "true Israel" to use "Jacob" and "Israel" interchangeably with respect to the Church.

The New Testament uses the term "Israel" 71 times. Of those 70, those who think that the Church is Israel can only use four (4) verses ( Rom 9:6, 1Cor. 10:18, Gal. 6:16, and Rev 7:4) to imply that the Church is Israel, and those four verses do not even appear within a context that speaks to issue of who Israel is. The weakness of the "Church=Israel" position is the sheer lack of Scriptural foundation. When your primary biblical workhorse is rests on four verses from osbsure places in the Bible and have to be divorced from their natural context, that pretty much torpedoes such a position.

It may be true that the Messiah is being euphemistically referred to as "Israel" in Isaiah 49:3-7. Many commentators agree that this is indeed a Messianic passage. But what also needs to be borne out is that there is no attempt to set up the Messiah as "THE TRUE" Israel. That is not the purpose the author has in this passsage. We should not attempt to impose a purpose or perspective that dilutes or misconstrues the author's intent.

Isiah by way of the Holy Spirit also declares that the Messiah would be a covenant for the people. This is significant because what he is referring to here is that the Messiah stands as the covenant representative of Israel before the God the Father. He is "Israel" only in a representative capacity when the v.3 is taken with the whole of the passage. God is not attempting to alter the definition of Israel. He is declaring his purposes for the nation Israel through Jesus who stands before God as "Israel" being their covenant representative. Whenever you become a "covenant" for your family you stand as your family's representative before the with whom you are making covenant.

In v. 8 of chapter 49, Isaiah declares that Jesus will serve as the nation of Israel's covenant to restore the Land and to restore the people to the Land. This is in keeping with God's promises all throughout Scripture relative to His nation, Israel/Jacob.

God's promise to restore Israel

• The Jewish People will always be God's People; Jer. 31:35-37
  
• God Promises the Jewish People's return to the land (Jer. 30:3 Isa. 43:5-7; Eze 36: 24; Eze. 37:11-14)
  
• God's promise to reunite all twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel (Jer. 3:18; Eze. 37:15-23; Hos. 1:10-11)
  
• The Lord promises both a physical and spiritual restoration of Israel (Jer. 31:31-34 Is. 40:1-2; Eze. 36:24-28 Zec. 12:10)
  

I'm only about halfway through this, but it's making sense to me so far! Thanks Shiloh! Edited June 9, 2007 by Motivated By Grace