Neopatriarch Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hello all, I became a Christian in an Arminian church. There I was told to accept Christ's death for my sins. But now, as a Calvinist, I wonder what does it mean for me to believe on Christ? Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins? When I became a Christian I chose to believe that Christ died for my sins. I didn't know Christ died for my sins. How could I? For all I knew at the time I was a reprobate who would never believe on Christ. If that were the case, and I was nevertheless obligated to believe that Christ died for my sins, then I was obligated to believe a lie because Christ did not die for reprobates. He died for the elect. So the question is: Does believing on Christ entail believing that Christ died for your sins? How do you know? -Neopatriarch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-Of-Israel Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hello all, I became a Christian in an Arminian church. There I was told to accept Christ's death for my sins. But now, as a Calvinist, I wonder what does it mean for me to believe on Christ? Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins? When I became a Christian I chose to believe that Christ died for my sins. I didn't know Christ died for my sins. How could I? For all I knew at the time I was a reprobate who would never believe on Christ. If that were the case, and I was nevertheless obligated to believe that Christ died for my sins, then I was obligated to believe a lie because Christ did not die for reprobates. He died for the elect. So the question is: Does believing on Christ entail believing that Christ died for your sins? How do you know? -Neopatriarch Christ died for all. He loves all, and wishes that all dwell with him. One can believe in Christ, and not believe he died for him. The demons believe in Christ. I know because I know Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtwo Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,144 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1978 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Your confusion appears to be due to faulty theology. God -did- die for sinners. On hearing the Word, we either believe it or don't. Many have heard but don't believe (re: Christ's parable of the sower). This is the part of Calvanism that I've never understood: how does God randomly choose the elect (as He must, since, according to Paul, we've done nothing and -can- do nothing to earn this salvation for ourselves)? No. God died for "the world" -- that is, all mankind -- so that "whoever" believes would have Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 Christ died for all. Universalism? Christ atoned for everyone's sins? He loves all, and wishes that all dwell with him. He hated Esau, and all will not dwell with him so God must be eternally miserable with so many reprobates going to hell against his wishes. One can believe in Christ, and not believe he died for him. The demons believe in Christ. I know because I know Christ. Do the demons trust Christ though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LAW Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 IMO, when you became a Christian, you took the first baby step. The HS continually renews that old sin nature in us, constantly pointing out and working on different areas in our minds, hearts and souls, to remake us into a new creature. It is Christ's payment of our sin debt on the cross that makes us free to accept the work of the HS. We never reach the end of being a completely new creature until we are remade by God at the end of time. Paul talked in Romans about that which he would do, he did not do, and that which he would not do, he did. So we all do until the time when we are perfected by the Lord. I do now know where you find support for the statement that "Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins?" We are obligated to believe if we desire salvation, but not everyone who hears will believe. Finally, how can you say that Christ did not die for reprobates, when Rom 5:6-11 says: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: WHILE we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2007 Shalom Neo, I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, I am a born-again, Bible-believing, spirit-filled child of King Jesus. I say that to say sometimes we get caught up in labels and man's doctrines and denominations when the Bible is for ALL who open their spiritual eyes and ears to hear it. G-d never made denominations. He did give us His Word. Yes, I believe the Scriptures say that WHOSOEVER believes on the L-rd Jesus will be saved. Believing that Jesus died for YOUR sins is not a lie. It is Scriptural truth. Yes, He died for reprobates, for all of us were sinners until we gave our lives to Jesus and He washed us and made us His! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hello all, I became a Christian in an Arminian church. There I was told to accept Christ's death for my sins. But now, as a Calvinist, I wonder what does it mean for me to believe on Christ? Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins? When I became a Christian I chose to believe that Christ died for my sins. I didn't know Christ died for my sins. How could I? For all I knew at the time I was a reprobate who would never believe on Christ. If that were the case, and I was nevertheless obligated to believe that Christ died for my sins, then I was obligated to believe a lie because Christ did not die for reprobates. He died for the elect. So the question is: Does believing on Christ entail believing that Christ died for your sins? How do you know? -Neopatriarch I haven't read all the responses but for me it is simple as eating bread. The bread is placed on the table for all to eat. Everyone has a choice whether or not to eat the bread. Some live beneath their inheritence and consume only crumbs but others dive in an eat to their hearts content. Unfortunately, not all will eat the bread...even though there is more than enough for everyone to eat to their hearts content. Jesus taught that He is the Bread of Life. He was born in a place called the House of Bread. He was more than able to take only 7 loaves of bread and feed multitudes with more than enough left over. So the issue is simply: whomever eats of the Bread will have eternal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 16, 2007 I do now know where you find support for the statement that "Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins?" We are obligated to believe if we desire salvation, but not everyone who hears will believe. Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but know he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LAW Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Neo: I still think the quote from Romans 5 can be interpreted that Christ died for the ungodly-meaning even those who will not accept salvation. I believe it is their free will to accept or reject the salvation available for them. On this, we'll have to disagreed. you'll be a Calvanist and I'll be Arminian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 16, 2007 I do now know where you find support for the statement that "Everyone who hears the gospel is obligated to believe it, but does this mean they are obligated to believe that Christ died for their sins?" We are obligated to believe if we desire salvation, but not everyone who hears will believe. Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but know he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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