for those that believe you can lose your salvation

[Guest LadyC]

are you going to sit here and deny that God and Jesus are one in purpose? are you going to deny that Jesus is the LIVING WORD of GOD? are you going to deny the trinity?

are you going to sit here and say paul was blowing smoke to the romans in that letter and wasn't using history as a relevant way of conveying to them what can happen if one turns away from God and hardens their heart towards Him?

yes, this is about Jesus. it is about God. unless you don't believe in the triune nature of God. Christ didn't come to abolish anything. He came to fulfill everything.

i gotta go. i'm already late.

[Guest LadyC]

i'm sorry, you're asking me if i know what salvation is? good grief. nor am i saying that just because they were jews they were automatically saved. i'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.

they KNEW GOD, (i.e. they had a relationship with Him) and they EXCHANGED GOD for idol worship, and God GAVE THEM UP.

and yes i know this thread is about losing salvation. my point is, one can not LOSE salvation, nor can they have their salvation STOLEN from them.

but they CAN WALK AWAY from God and forfiet the gift of salvation they had once accepted.

it is an act of selfish will on the part of the individual. it's called apostacy.

Please could you explain to me how one forfeits a gift once accepted? Suppose you gave me a birthday present and at the time I thanked you very much for it. Subsequently, I made a whole website devoted to telling everyone what a rubbish gift you had given me, how I no longer even liked you, and what a stupid person you are. How would I forfeit that gift? Would you ask for it to be returned? Would you come and take it away? I cannot in logic and reason understand how one forfeits a gift. But I could just be obtuse and ignorant. I ask in all sincerity because I have long puzzled over this question.

In Jesus,

Ruth

you forfiet a gift by throwing it in the nearest dumpster with yesterday's garbage. if you want to understand more, read my previous posts. or better yet, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as you study the scriptures.

not MY understanding of the scriptures, not the understanding of whatever theologian you posted a link to earlier, but God's understanding. never take my word for anything, or anyone else's.

[exrockstar]

are you going to sit here and deny that God and Jesus are one in purpose? are you going to deny that Jesus is the LIVING WORD of GOD? are you going to deny the trinity?

trinity is 3 different persons but one.

uhm...i think you may have to iron out some things in your studies.

1. that Roman passage is God the Father.

2. Those paganists that you call Jews is Paul taking shots at Nero.

3. Belief in Jesus Christ is salvation. If you put all your hope on God the Father then there was no reason for Christ to come. Theres plenty of religions that acknowledge God but reject Jesus.

when you read that passage again it shows that people ought to know that there IS A GOD.

It has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting the gospel which is your salvation.

If youre wondering "well, when did they know God?" there are many

showdowns in the OT and I'll be more than happy to show them to you.

geeez, no wonder i was confused on what you were saying.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:

for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[methinkshe]

i'm sorry, you're asking me if i know what salvation is? good grief. nor am i saying that just because they were jews they were automatically saved. i'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.

they KNEW GOD, (i.e. they had a relationship with Him) and they EXCHANGED GOD for idol worship, and God GAVE THEM UP.

and yes i know this thread is about losing salvation. my point is, one can not LOSE salvation, nor can they have their salvation STOLEN from them.

but they CAN WALK AWAY from God and forfiet the gift of salvation they had once accepted.

it is an act of selfish will on the part of the individual. it's called apostacy.

Please could you explain to me how one forfeits a gift once accepted? Suppose you gave me a birthday present and at the time I thanked you very much for it. Subsequently, I made a whole website devoted to telling everyone what a rubbish gift you had given me, how I no longer even liked you, and what a stupid person you are. How would I forfeit that gift? Would you ask for it to be returned? Would you come and take it away? I cannot in logic and reason understand how one forfeits a gift. But I could just be obtuse and ignorant. I ask in all sincerity because I have long puzzled over this question.

In Jesus,

Ruth

you forfiet a gift by throwing it in the nearest dumpster with yesterday's garbage. if you want to understand more, read my previous posts. or better yet, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as you study the scriptures.

If I throw away your gift to me, has it become forfeit, i.e. taken away? That I have dumped it, or have not used it, does not mean that it is forfeited.

Please, let us be accurate with lnaguage because it is only language that allows accurate communication.

Dictionary.com definition of forfeit:

1. a fine; penalty.

2. an act of forfeiting; forfeiture.

3. something to which the right is lost, as for commission of a crime or misdeed, neglect of duty, or violation of a contract.

4. an article deposited in a game because of a mistake and redeemable by a fine or penalty.

5. forfeits, (used with a singular verb) a game in which such articles are taken from the players.

[Fiosh]

In reading thru this thread, it seems that those who hold the OSAS theology claim that we have NOTHING whatsoever to do with our own salvation. Am I understanding that correctly?

This is NOT to say that we can earn salvation. We all agree that salvation is only possible thru Jesus' death on the Cross.

But are you saying that once we accept Christ, no matter what we do or don't do after that, we are saved???

To believe that, you'd have to totally disregard everything the Bible says about how a believer is expected to act. The knee-jerk argument would be to say, " how we act is just a reflection of our love". Well, to a point, maybe. But we're human, and by nature---selfish. Jesus is very clear and extremely serious about what He expects from His followers.

What did He say to the rich young man?

Matthew 19

16 Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"

17

He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

18 He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

19

honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

20

The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"

21

Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22

When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

23

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24

Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

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And again Jesus tells us what we must DO to gain salvation:

Matthew 25

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

...

34

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36

naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

37

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38

When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39

When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42

For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43

a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

44

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

45

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

46

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So there is no way to make an argument that we don't have anything to DO with our own salvation.

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And, Paul makes it clear that we must continue to walk the walk to the end:

2 Timothy

10 Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory.

11

This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him;

12

if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.

13

If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

Yes, God is faithful. And He will always be ready to forgive. But if we turn from Him, He will not force us to remain in Him.

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I agree with LadyC; Paul used the relationship between God and the Hebrews to compare how our relationship (and faithfulness) to Christ should be:

1 Cor

1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,

2

and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

3

All ate the same spiritual food,

4

and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.

5

Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert.

6

These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did.

7

And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel."

8

Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day.

9

Let us not test Christ as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents.

10

Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer.

11

These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come.

12 Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall

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*****

And to make it abundantly clear that NO ONE should take their salvation for granted, Paul even uses himself as an example. Despite all that he has sacrificed for the cause of the Gospel, he does not take his own salvation for granted:

I Cor 9

24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.

25

Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.

26

Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.

27

No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Leonard]

The book of Jude answers this question quite difinitively. Jude says he had hoped to write them a cheery note, but that because of a horrific and damaging heresy which had begun to creep in, he instead had to write them a letter showing the heresy to be false, so they couldn't possibly fall for this satanic deception.

The rest of the Epistle is occupied showing examples of people and even angels, who, though once 'saved,' had indeed LOST their beatific estate.

I wonder what 'heresy' he could possibly have been rebuking!??!

No wonder some over the years have argued that Jude should be removed from the Canon!

[Fiosh]

The book of Jude answers this question quite difinitively. Jude says he had hoped to write them a cheery note, but that because of a horrific and damaging heresy which had begun to creep in, he instead had to write them a letter showing the heresy to be false, so they couldn't possibly fall for this satanic deception.

The rest of the Epistle is occupied showing examples of people and even angels, who, though once 'saved,' had indeed LOST their beatific estate.

I wonder what 'heresy' he could possibly have been rebuking!??!

No wonder some over the years have argued that Jude should be removed from the Canon!

Good point. Jude is one of the books Martin Luther wanted to do away with; along with James ("faith without works is dead").

F

[exrockstar]

In reading thru this thread, it seems that those who hold the OSAS theology claim that we have NOTHING whatsoever to do with our own salvation. Am I understanding that correctly?

This is NOT to say that we can earn salvation. We all agree that salvation is only possible thru Jesus' death on the Cross.

i know you just posted a lot of scripture but take this one and see how it fits in to all those beautiful passages you just presented.

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Guest LadyC]

sorry exrockstar, there's nothing wrong with my comprehension on this subject of scripture. perhaps you'd do well to read things in context with ALL SCRIPTURE. apparently you are not willing to do this. and fyi, abraham KNEW God, would you agree? the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary for all of mankind and did away with the sacrificing of animals in repentance. but God was known... even prior to the crucifixion. just because Jesus wasn't walking the earth back then did not change that.

ruth, if someone gives you a gift certificate for dinner at steak & ale, you are entitled to a free dinner. if you don't use it, you don't use it... but it's not forfieted because the certificate STILL entitles you to dinner.

but if you throw it in the trash, you are no longer entitled to anything from steak & ale.

if one does not retain God in their hearts, and HARDEN their hearts against Him, they have thrown away the gift of salvation. now let me use another analogy... if you marry a man and your heart is full of love and he promises to provide for you, nurture you, care for you til death do you part, are you forced to continue loving him? nope. a time may come when you no longer have love in your heart for him, and your heart has become so full of hardness, contempt, hatred, for whatever reason, and you may choose to file for a divorce. in doing so, you forfiet what is entitled to you as the wife of this man. he no longer has to provide for you, nurture you, care for you, or even do so much as throw you a worn out blanket. why? because you have rejected the gift of love he offered. that's not his fault. you didn't accidentally lose his love, some other woman didn't steal his heart away from you... you walked away from the life that was offered.

nothing you can say will change scripture into what you want it to say. God doesn't force us to enter heaven if we don't want to.

do you osas'ers believe that apostacy doesn't exist or something?

[exrockstar]

sorry exrockstar, there's nothing wrong with my comprehension on this subject of scripture. perhaps you'd do well to read things in context with ALL SCRIPTURE. apparently you are not willing to do this. and fyi, abraham KNEW God, would you agree? the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary for all of mankind and did away with the sacrificing of animals in repentance. but God was known... even prior to the crucifixion. just because Jesus wasn't walking the earth back then did not change that.

ruth, if someone gives you a gift certificate for dinner at steak & ale, you are entitled to a free dinner. if you don't use it, you don't use it... but it's not forfieted because the certificate STILL entitles you to dinner.

but if you throw it in the trash, you are no longer entitled to anything from steak & ale.

if one does not retain God in their hearts, and HARDEN their hearts against Him, they have thrown away the gift of salvation. now let me use another analogy... if you marry a man and your heart is full of love and he promises to provide for you, nurture you, care for you til death do you part, are you forced to continue loving him? nope. a time may come when you no longer have love in your heart for him, and your heart has become so full of hardness, contempt, hatred, for whatever reason, and you may choose to file for a divorce. in doing so, you forfiet what is entitled to you as the wife of this man. he no longer has to provide for you, nurture you, care for you, or even do so much as throw you a worn out blanket. why? because you have rejected the gift of love he offered. that's not his fault. you didn't accidentally lose his love, some other woman didn't steal his heart away from you... you walked away from the life that was offered.

nothing you can say will change scripture into what you want it to say. God doesn't force us to enter heaven if we don't want to.

do you osas'ers believe that apostacy doesn't exist or something?

sorry those analogies are great but your scripture is a little weak. IMO.

just a pointer...break away from saying "if one does not retain God in their hearts, and HARDEN their hearts against Him"..start saying "Jesus Christ" because according to scripture...there's going to be many people believing in God but only those that have accepted Jesus Christ will be saved.

this is scripture and that is the language I would recommend for you to use.

Cain and Abel both "knew God" but God rejected Cain's offereing. Are you going to use "the heart" excuse?

God the Father requires specific methods or they are rejected.

So while youre trying to reach the pinnacle of a righteous person and trying to be the best you can be.

It will all go up in smoke if you didn't accept Christ as your savior.

While your trying to push the lifestyle of a righteous person you have someone, who is non-Christian, like Ghandi beating you by a mile.

Ghandi is closer to being "Christ-like" than you'll ever be.

So base your salvation on how you live.

I base mine on accepting the gospel.