Understanding Genesis 1 & 2

[4Pillars]

???..

What does without void mean. What does formless mean.

There is still no reconciliation. Once again read Isa, and then read Gen 1:1-2..Either there is a contradiction, or we must dig deeper.

To say that the heavens and earth did not exisit if confusing. The Word says in the beginning God Created the heavens and earth. Not difficult.

Then we have the earth was(became something contrary) to what God created it. He created it not in vain...same word used for without form.

How else can this be reconciled without contradicting what the Word says.

Dear ruck1b,

There's no contradiction - just wrong interpretation. Let mel refer you back to my previous post... # 7 Please read again with open mind.

There are several reasons why I believe that the word used in Gen. 1:1 is Heaven and not Heavens (plural) as it relate to the Story of the Beginning of Genesis. In the context of the text, I see the narrative as saying:

In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere. JMHO

God Bless

Edited May 22, 2007 by 4Pillars

[rtwo]

I would again point out, however, that ultimately, Gen. 1 is poetry and can clearly not be taken as an established time line (once again, I'd point out that in the universe, light is attached to the sun ... without the sun - formed on day 4, according to the account - there would be no light).

Dear rtwo,

Jesus is God and was with His Father before the Beginning of the Physical World. When God said, Let there be Light (Gen. 1:3), Jesus came forth from the invisible Spirit of Love into the Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed.

He was Not Created, since He was already God in the beginning. Jesus was the True Light duriing during the beginning of the Creation process (John 1:9), just as He will be the Light of Heaven in the end, which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it (Rev. 21:1-3).

So, Jesus was created, and was not created? Or was simply made physical at this point? Further, is this to suggest that the drawing of light in Gen 1:3 was not an act of creation? Textual (and contextual) criticism says otherwise. This idea simply doesn't follow with the rest of the ideas presented in Gen.1- being, that each of the other stanzas refer to acts of creation. Though I agree with the basic ideas that Jesus was there during creation, and was involved in creation, the ideas your presenting here (that the calling for light was in fact the calling of Jesus to a physical form) simply can't be derived from scripture. They are interesting ideas, but without scriptural precedent.

Now, concerning the Creation, Genesis chapter 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven, literally speaking. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days.

That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts agree totally and in detail.

What is amazing is that God wrote our History more than 3,000 years ago, and the events at the end of the 6th Day are still Future. IOW, God told the complete story of the Creation in Genesis 1 and beginning at Gen 2:4, we begin to learn the details of the events of Genesis 1.

The Bible was written for the past, present, and future. It is relevant for today, and tomorrow. Written by the Supreme Intelligence, it's just too hard for others and unbelievers to comprehend.

While I agree with much of what you've written here (especially about the relevance of Scripture and the inerrency of God's Word with regard to creation itself), I disagree that day 6 is future tense. When God first created it, He looked and saw it was good. To pull this from the rest of the context and separate it as future is a mishandling of Scripture.

[4Pillars]

So, Jesus was created, and was not created? Or was simply made physical at this point? Further, is this to suggest that the drawing of light in Gen 1:3 was not an act of creation? Textual (and contextual) criticism says otherwise. This idea simply doesn't follow with the rest of the ideas presented in Gen.1- being, that each of the other stanzas refer to acts of creation. Though I agree with the basic ideas that Jesus was there during creation, and was involved in creation, the ideas your presenting here (that the calling for light was in fact the calling of Jesus to a physical form) simply can't be derived from scripture. They are interesting ideas, but without scriptural precedent.

Dear rtwo,

Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Again, In the Garden of Gethsemane, just before His Crucification, Jesus prays to the Father:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

He was brought forth (begotten) into the Physical World from the invisible realm of the Father on the 1st Day. Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day, the Light of the first 3 Days, since the Sun was not made until the 4th Day. Jesus is also the Light of Heaven:

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23

Jesus is the beginning and the end. Jesus is LORD.

While I agree with much of what you've written here (especially about the relevance of Scripture and the inerrency of God's Word with regard to creation itself), I disagree that day 6 is future tense. When God first created it, He looked and saw it was good. To pull this from the rest of the context and separate it as future is a mishandling of Scripture.

Your unfounded opinion is only based on your religious view which is not supported by the Scripture to sustain your continuing objection. Just so you have an idea....

Genesis 1 is the History of the Creation of the 3rd Heaven. It details the History of How the Godhead Created His Perfect, physical, World. Most of it is past, but some of it is future. Gen. 1:29 shows us Prophecy that mankind will Eat of Every Tree, which includes the Tree of Life. This prophecy is fulfilled in Heaven. Rev. 22:2. Gen. 1:30 is also future and will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns to this Planet, and the Lion eats Straw as the Ox. Isaiah 11:7

This Prophecy is Future because mankind has NEVER eaten of Every Tree and there has NEVER been a time when ALL animals were vegetarians. The Prophecy of Genesis 1:29-30 has NOT yet happened, which means that we remain in the 6th Day.

When these prophecies are fulfilled, God's Creation of His Perfect Heaven, will be completed, and brought to Perfection....Finished. Then God will Rest or Sabbath, and He will Cease "ALL His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:3

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create New Heavens and a New Earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

God Bless

Edited May 23, 2007 by 4Pillars

[4Pillars]

Praise God our salvation does not hinge on our agreement in this. In other words I cant walk with you in this.

One Hope

Dear ruck1b,

Just like you, most of Christian Brethren do Not agree with me but they see that I support my views with Scripture, but most have Never been taught what I post. In time, they accept me, but cling to the ideas they have been taught.

I post to try to get others to read it for themselves, and compare it with what they have been taught. I do not write things to cause others, problems, but to cause others to read and study Scripture, and to see that God's Word is the Truth in every way.

God Bless

[Guest LAW]

Love this thread! thanks for the research/knowledge you're sharing.

[4Pillars]

Love this thread! thanks for the research/knowledge you're sharing.

Dear LAW,

Thank you so much for being open minded. It feels satisfying when someone like you can relate to my research and understanding. May the good Lord share you more wisdom and blessings.

God Bless

[HAZARD]

In Genesis 1 God creates the Heavens and the earth. Angels were already created for they sang with joy as God laid the foundations of the Earth.

From Genesis 2 God is restoring the earth which was destroyed because of Lucifers rebellion.

The Bible says that the heavens cannot be measured and the host of heaven cannot be counted (Jer. 31:37; 33:22-25). If this is true then the material universe is vast beyond conception, and as God has existed from all eternity it is also hard to concieve that He only decided a few millenniums ago to do something.

In answer to this question the Bible tells us that, "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," it does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago.

When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life in Earth, we can speak with definate authority that it was 6,000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam.

Some teachers use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6,000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages. In these Scriptures the Hebrew, asah, meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word bara, to creat. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days, and not the original creation "In the beginning." Asah never means to create.

Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care as in the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures, after its destruction and ruin caused by the first war ever fought. This war was a cataclismic battle between God and Satan, when Lucifer invaded Heaven to cast God out. Satan was defeated and cast back down to the Earth, as is written in Isa. 14:12-14; Luke 10:18. This war was fought long before the days of Adam, for Lucifer was already a fallen creature when he came into Adams Eden. For an unknown period, there was an original social system on this Earth ruled by Lucifer as proved in (Isa. 14:12-14; 45:18; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2 Pet. 3:5-7). Along with this origional social system there were land animals, birds, fish, and other creatures created, and they were destroyed in the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-7. It is to this period that all fossils and remains of animals belong, as well as geological formations of the Earth.

Between these original creation's of God, "In the beginning' and the creations of the six days, is revealed the rule of Lucifer on the earth for an unknown period, his rebellion against God, the Earth's first sinful career, the defeat of Lucifer by God, and the overthrow of his kingdom by the first recorded flood on the earth in Gen. 1:2. Lucifer was the first ruler on the earth and he already had his period of Earth rule and his fall by the time of Adam.

In the work of the six days, it is stated that God with His hands FORMED each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13). It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear the God FORMED all things with His hands. God formed both light anddarkness (Isa. 24:7). He did not do this on the first day of Gen 1:3-5, for at that time He merely DIVIDED them. Therefore THEY MUST HAVE BEEN CREATED AND FORMED before the first day. It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3, 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 9:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12; the planets (Ps.8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation af all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands God formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, as God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands. (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).

Judging from what was done by God in six days, it took God a long time to originnaly create or bring into existence the material and use it to form with His hands each sun, moon, star, planet, and each creature that inhabits the vast endless universe. God took one day to merly divide the light from the darkness on this little planet Earth. How much time He originally took to bring into existence all the light and darkness of the entire universe is not known, but evidently He took a longer time than one day. God took one day to divide the waters which covered the Earth and restore the firmament and took one day to restore the earth and set bounds to the seas, therefore He naturally took a much longer period to originally bring the materials into existence and form the waters, the firmament, and the earth with its many mountains and valleys. God took one day to complete solar regulation in connection with the restored Earth, but He evidently used a much longer period to originally bring into existence and formwith His own hands the vast heavens and all the suns, moons, stars, and planets that are without number. God took two days to form the fish, fowls, beasts,, man and woman. He naturally took a much longer period to originally creat and form each inhabitant of the vast heavens and the many animals and inhabitants who originally lived on the Earth during Lucifer's kingdom, long before the chaos of Gen 1:2 and the six days of Gen.1:3-2-25.

In other words, if God took six days to restore one little planet to a habitable state and form new inhabitants for the earth, He would naturally take a much longer time to originally create and form with His hands the vast universe with all of its innumerable suns and planets along with their inhabitants.

[rtwo]

So, Jesus was created, and was not created? Or was simply made physical at this point? Further, is this to suggest that the drawing of light in Gen 1:3 was not an act of creation? Textual (and contextual) criticism says otherwise. This idea simply doesn't follow with the rest of the ideas presented in Gen.1- being, that each of the other stanzas refer to acts of creation. Though I agree with the basic ideas that Jesus was there during creation, and was involved in creation, the ideas your presenting here (that the calling for light was in fact the calling of Jesus to a physical form) simply can't be derived from scripture. They are interesting ideas, but without scriptural precedent.

Dear rtwo,

Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Again, In the Garden of Gethsemane, just before His Crucification, Jesus prays to the Father:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

He was brought forth (begotten) into the Physical World from the invisible realm of the Father on the 1st Day. Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day, the Light of the first 3 Days, since the Sun was not made until the 4th Day. Jesus is also the Light of Heaven:

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23

Jesus is the beginning and the end. Jesus is LORD.

While I agree with much of what you've written here (especially about the relevance of Scripture and the inerrency of God's Word with regard to creation itself), I disagree that day 6 is future tense. When God first created it, He looked and saw it was good. To pull this from the rest of the context and separate it as future is a mishandling of Scripture.

Your unfounded opinion is only based on your religious view which is not supported by the Scripture to sustain your continuing objection. Just so you have an idea....

Genesis 1 is the History of the Creation of the 3rd Heaven. It details the History of How the Godhead Created His Perfect, physical, World. Most of it is past, but some of it is future. Gen. 1:29 shows us Prophecy that mankind will Eat of Every Tree, which includes the Tree of Life. This prophecy is fulfilled in Heaven. Rev. 22:2. Gen. 1:30 is also future and will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns to this Planet, and the Lion eats Straw as the Ox. Isaiah 11:7

This Prophecy is Future because mankind has NEVER eaten of Every Tree and there has NEVER been a time when ALL animals were vegetarians. The Prophecy of Genesis 1:29-30 has NOT yet happened, which means that we remain in the 6th Day.

When these prophecies are fulfilled, God's Creation of His Perfect Heaven, will be completed, and brought to Perfection....Finished. Then God will Rest or Sabbath, and He will Cease "ALL His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:3

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create New Heavens and a New Earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

God Bless

You're not supporting your point with scripture -- you're mentioning scripture and then providing your own interpretation. Then you're using that interpretation to prove your interpretation. This is what's known as begging the question. I don't doubt your sincerity in your beliefs -- but I do doubt your sincerity in willingness to learn; you seem to expect such from us, but will not yourself reciprocate.

You can't pull random scriptures and say, "see, this means 'A', thus proving 'B' -- we know that 'A' is the meaning of this because of the reality of 'B'. Again... begging the question.

[4Pillars]

You're not supporting your point with scripture -- you're mentioning scripture and then providing your own interpretation. Then you're using that interpretation to prove your interpretation. This is what's known as begging the question. I don't doubt your sincerity in your beliefs -- but I do doubt your sincerity in willingness to learn; you seem to expect such from us, but will not yourself reciprocate.

You can't pull random scriptures and say, "see, this means 'A', thus proving 'B' -- we know that 'A' is the meaning of this because of the reality of 'B'. Again... begging the question.

Following your illogical assumption, I guess, the begging question for you is .... DO YOU HAVE ANY SCRIPTURE TO PROVE ME WRONG OR SUSTAIN YOUR OBJECTION WITH MERIT?

Thanks

Edited May 24, 2007 by 4Pillars

[rtwo]

You're not supporting your point with scripture -- you're mentioning scripture and then providing your own interpretation. Then you're using that interpretation to prove your interpretation. This is what's known as begging the question. I don't doubt your sincerity in your beliefs -- but I do doubt your sincerity in willingness to learn; you seem to expect such from us, but will not yourself reciprocate.

You can't pull random scriptures and say, "see, this means 'A', thus proving 'B' -- we know that 'A' is the meaning of this because of the reality of 'B'. Again... begging the question.

Following your illogical assumption, I guess, the begging question for you is .... DO YOU HAVE ANY SCRIPTURE TO PROVE ME WRONG OR SUSTAIN YOUR OBJECTION WITH MERIT?

Thanks

It's in the context. No, the Bible doesn't specifically say, "oh, and by the way, the "6th day of Genesis is actually the 6th day of creation, just like it says..." because it doesn't need to. That's what context is. It's mystifying that you find yourself able to pull scripture totally out of context and then challenge -me- to prove it's out of context. The answer's in the question. Prove to me, without using scripture that you've interpreted yourself (in other words, scripture that doesn't require your interpretation) to prove yourself right.

You're the one who came in deciding to teach us your interpretation and call anyone who questioned it "closed-minded." It's up to you to prove, not me.

Also, just to point out: I made no assumption, illogical or otherwise, and nothing about the post was in any way outside the realm of logic.