None Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Who was it he wrestled with? Genesis 32:22-30 Jacob Wrestles With God 22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." I've always thought it was an angel but here it makes indication he wrestles with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Good question None...............wondered the same thing myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2007 Who was it he wrestled with? Genesis 32:22-30 Jacob Wrestles With God 22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." I've always thought it was an angel but here it makes indication he wrestles with God. Hello None, Interesting passage isn't it. I have always liked reading that passage and the story of Jacob in general. My thoughts have always leaned toward it being an angel mainly because of the way verse #28 reads in full And he said Thy name shall be called no more Jacob but Israel for as a prince hath thou power with God and with men and hast prevailed. It seems that if it was God instead of an angel then God wouldn't have replied by saying, hath thou power with God and with men and hast prevailed but instead if it was God he would have said, hath thou power with me and with men and hast prevailed. You see what I mean. One can wrestle with God without fighting with God Himself you do this with your faith like Jacob and perservere. Daniel comes to mind when he had set his heart to know the meaning of somethings and he began to pray and fast and during that long time of fasting and prayer the angel Micheal was fighting in the spiritual realm to get the message through to Daniel from God. My point is simply that the angels of God are ministering spirits and speak on God's behalf as God's spokesman and I think this is what was going on here. When Jacob was fighting or wrestling in his sleep that he held onto that angel from God until he recieved a blessing from God and God afterwards took Jacob and made a nation from the children born to him as they were the 12 patriarch or heads of the twelve tribes of Israel. As God created the nation of Israel hence the saying Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated as Esau children made up the nation of Edom but Jacob children made up the beloved nation that would not exist without Jacob being Israel. Anyways these are my personal thoughts on the matter. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. In verse 28 the man actually identifies himself as God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. In verse 28 the man actually identifies himself as God I strongly feel that that's because, as stated above, angels are "always in the presence of God". God spoke through the angel, in other words. I only want to see other opinions on this so I can move along in my reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. In verse 28 the man actually identifies himself as God I strongly feel that that's because, as stated above, angels are "always in the presence of God". God spoke through the angel, in other words. I only want to see other opinions on this so I can move along in my reading. What is also interesting about this passage is the way it totally transformed Jacob. Up until this point, Jacob had been a deceiver. He met his match in Laban. God was in the process of taking Jacob to character school. The them of Jacob's life seems to be, "The deceiver is deceived". After this encouter with God, we see Jacob reunited with Esau. Formerly he had seen Esau (and others for that matter) as objects to be manipulated. Now he sees Esau again and this is what he (Jacob) says: And Jacob said, "No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. Genesis 33:10 NASB Jacob's encounter with God, now enabled him to see the image of God in others. He no longer viewed them as objects, but as people worthy of honor, because they retain God's image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2007 'None' Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. You are most welcome None, It is a most interesting passage of scripture for sure. In my "opinion" I do not think it was a translational error at all. Nor do I think that Jacob was mistaken when he thought it was God Himself because I "personally" believe that it was God Himself that Jacob was really wrestling with inside of himself all along throughout the course of his life which had lead him to this very night with God. I'll get back to my thoughts on this in a minute so you can see where I'm coming from better. The angels of God have appeared many times throughout the scriptures in the appearance of men you have the three men visitors who visited and ate with Abraham for example. Angels are always shown to us in the scriptures in male form always and there is always a sense of God's overwelming presence when one met with angels in the bible. In the book of Ezekiel for example the angel picked Ezekiel up by the hair of the head and carried him off and there where times that they fell prostate on the floor shaking in fear and reverence of God and John the Revelator was told not to worship the angel in which came to show him the meaning of the things in which he had been shown. So to cut it short I believe you are correct that there is a sense of God's presence that makes one feel it's God they're with as scripture bears that thought out for us. But back to Jacob you have to realize what all he went through in his life as Jacob was the youngest and the youngest did not get the inheritance or blessing but the elder which in this case was Esau. But Esau didn't care about his inheritance or birth right and Jacob bought it from Esau for basically a bowl of beans. Then when Isaac was getting older in years he called for Esau to come in so that he could pass the blessing or birthright inheritance down to him and Isaac wanted some of his venision to eat and while Esau was gone some hanky panky went on and Jacob ended up decieving Isaac into thinking it was Esau and Jacob ended up getting the birthright blessing from him instead of his elder brother Esau whose birthright it really belonged to all along. But cutting this short this birthright blessing was from a natural father but the spiritual birthright blessing that Jacob was wrestling and fighting for his whole life was one from our heavenly Father above and His blessings upon our lives as in God the younger who normally wouldn't get a birthright blessing can get an inheritance of God the Father. You see through Jacob who is Israel the nation in which came from him is the nation in which our Saviour came from the tribe of Judah and through Christ all nations of the earth are blessed and can have eternal inheritance which otherwise without Christ would not. Hope I have made some sense to this sorry so long. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. I use the KJV myself as I personally prefer the version myself and use the NIV also. These are my two main versions of choice. I have about every version out there in my possession but the KJV is preferred first. Blessings to you OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC. My other point in this was, is that a translational error or was Jacob mistaken when he thought it was God Himself? did he think it was God? That is how is reads. The only thing I can think of is that all of the "angels are in the face of God" so perhaps there's a sense of God's presence which could make one feel it's God they're with. PS:It seems to me KJV just breathes God's Word better than the other translations. Maybe I just like that version better, I don't know. In verse 28 the man actually identifies himself as God Genesis 32:28--"And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a "prince" hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." As I read this verse 28 I do not see it that the man that wrestled with Jacob all night long identifies himself as God. Even reading further in the passage Jacob asks the man what his name was and the man did not identify himself as God outright. But the man in verse 28 is speaking things forth to Jacob as if he is speaking for God instead of God Himself speaking to Jacob as I pointed out in another post the "man" says to Jacob your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel. Then the man tells Jacob that as a prince which is a "son" of a King you have had power with God and men and you have prevailed or overcome. If it was God speaking this to Jacob direct then God would have said you have had power with "me" because God would have been speaking but the man didn't say that. I just know when God get's in our life He turns it all around and there are great benefits to being the "sons" and "daughters of a King. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted June 10, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, OC, for that extensive confirmation. It was very enjoyable reading and I'll most likely be reading it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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