Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be. Shalom Rumple, I'm sorry, but saying that women tended sheep (the animals) is not Biblical support for the theory that women should be pastors of people. You are reading something into the Scriptures that is simply not there for doctrine. It's a nice thought, but it's not correct exegesis. Exegesis? This word has been shown to me before. No, I do not or my method is not. I simply read the Bible and talk to God. Once in a while I am led to study a certain matter. Hopefully, most of the leading is by the Holy Ghost showing me the Way to more Truth. Shalom Rumple, Exegesis means to study the Bible correctly. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible. Every person should study the Bible to know the truth and not read it to fit their own ideas. By saying that women should be ordained pastors because women tended sheep is not Biblical truth. IOW, if you say that, you are not interpreting the Scriptures correctly (exegesis) since the Bible does not say that. I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them. I do say that God is the one who calls people to be what He has for them. Does He call women to be in any of the five-fold ministry as listed in Eph 4:11? I believe so, but my belief is not set in concrete. Am I misinterpreting the scriptures in any way? Without a doubt, but in this I am certainly not alone. I do not know a single person who is perfectly in God's will all of the time. And...like all of the rest I believe that I am right about certain things that I do or believe even though I know that some of them are wrong. Part of the reason I am here and have been in other Internet forums now and in the past to learn. The Holy Ghost leads us to Truth, but very often people are a conduit to such Truth. "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 [ I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them. This is really a big problem in this thread. Is the issue whether or not a woman has a vibrant ministry that appears to be fruitful or is it following God's qualifications laid out in the Bible for offices in the church? Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. The issue is not whether or not they are good or poor pastors or whether a woman is an otherwise good pastor. This is not an exercise in pragmatism or what works. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Shalom Firehill, The "Shepherd" Jesus is talking about in this passage is not women pastors. This is just waaaaay to big of a stretch. There is no Biblical support for saying that because women may tend animals means that women should be ordained as pastors. That's what's called a Red Herring fallacy. Then Jesus is talking about men pastors? Is that a stretch? I don't see 'men' in there anywhere. Do you? Shalom Firehill, Cute, very cute. This passage is not even talking about pastors. That's why it's a Red Herring fallacy. The Shepherd is Jesus. He is the Gate as well. V11: 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. V 14-15 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. Christ himself refers to himself as the good shepherd. In v.2 he does not refer to himself as going through himself (the gate). He didn't make the distinction that you are trying to make. Christ explained that as the the good shepherd he lays down His life for the sheep. In 1 Peter 5:4 he is called the Chief Shepherd. It is Christ who gives some to be shepherds (or 'pastors', same word in Greek). Ephesians 4 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. 1 Timothy 3 isn't even talking about shepherds (pastors). Paul used different Greek words there. And in Ephesians 4 there are no limitations of the gifts placed on women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be. Shalom Rumple, I'm sorry, but saying that women tended sheep (the animals) is not Biblical support for the theory that women should be pastors of people. You are reading something into the Scriptures that is simply not there for doctrine. It's a nice thought, but it's not correct exegesis. Exegesis? This word has been shown to me before. No, I do not or my method is not. I simply read the Bible and talk to God. Once in a while I am led to study a certain matter. Hopefully, most of the leading is by the Holy Ghost showing me the Way to more Truth. Actually it's not exegesis, more like noting word meanings. He was noticing that women were animal shepards then (and today) as well as the men. The connection being that since Christ chose the analogy of sheparding which was done by both men and women, why think of Biblical sheparding as only done by men. Same thing can be done with the word for minister/serve. It was something that both men and women did so why when looking at spiritual serving should it be limited to men. Was that something like your point Rumple? I think it is a valid observation but not a tie breaker. No, not a tie breaker, Oops! Only God will break such a tie to show someone, me or another, His Truth. Even if I am right I cannot convince anyone of God's Truth unless God is in the convincing through me. He gives the increase. No one else! As to word meanings I do get into those some but seldom via the original Bible languages. Though my native language is American English, I have been a student of both Spanish and German read my Bible daily in both. It gives me a different perspective. Even what I obtain from that though is very mush dependent on what He wishes to give me. The following verse led me to not simply study scripture to find all of the answers. Not only good students are saved. "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12 The following verse used by many to show that we must study to find God's Truth tells me something else. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15 I see II Tim 2:15 as something to obey. God wants us to study not to learn His Truth, [although some of that may occur in the process], but because He asks us to do it. The following verse is more precise in showing just how and when I learn. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 I occasionally learn something NEW during my Bible studies, but usually, it is something that I am not specifically seeking at the time. He knows what I need better than I do and His timing is always better than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Christ himself refers to himself as the good shepherd. In v.2 he does not refer to himself as going through himself (the gate). He didn't make the distinction that you are trying to make. Christ explained that as the the good shepherd he lays down His life for the sheep. Shalom Firehill, But you have just contradicted your own posts and arguments! You are the one making the case for the "shepherd" in these verses, (that you posted), being women. It is simply not so, These verses in John are not talking about women pastors, or men pastors for that matter, but JESUS, the Good Shepherd. I'm glad you agree with me. I will not go down the rabbit trail of the gate now. We've strayed enough from the issue by you bringing in John and saying it relates to pastors. Now, that we've established that it doesn't, we can get back to the topic (which is NOT the gate, BTW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Vickilynn, you are such a blessing to this board. Shalom Emily Anne, Why, thank you!! It is my desire to glorify Jesus in all I say and do. I don't always succeed, but it's my heart's desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Rumple you might like this passage. John 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be. Shalom Rumple, I'm sorry, but saying that women tended sheep (the animals) is not Biblical support for the theory that women should be pastors of people. You are reading something into the Scriptures that is simply not there for doctrine. It's a nice thought, but it's not correct exegesis. Exegesis? This word has been shown to me before. No, I do not or my method is not. I simply read the Bible and talk to God. Once in a while I am led to study a certain matter. Hopefully, most of the leading is by the Holy Ghost showing me the Way to more Truth. Shalom Rumple, Exegesis means to study the Bible correctly. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible. Every person should study the Bible to know the truth and not read it to fit their own ideas. By saying that women should be ordained pastors because women tended sheep is not Biblical truth. IOW, if you say that, you are not interpreting the Scriptures correctly (exegesis) since the Bible does not say that. I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them. I do say that God is the one who calls people to be what He has for them. Does He call women to be in any of the five-fold ministry as listed in Eph 4:11? I believe so, but my belief is not set in concrete. Am I misinterpreting the scriptures in any way? Without a doubt, but in this I am certainly not alone. I do not know a single person who is perfectly in God's will all of the time. And...like all of the rest I believe that I am right about certain things that I do or believe even though I know that some of them are wrong. Part of the reason I am here and have been in other Internet forums now and in the past to learn. The Holy Ghost leads us to Truth, but very often people are a conduit to such Truth. "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23 Shalom Rumple, I appreciate your gracious reply and your humble spirit in your post. Yes, we are all human and capable of misinterpreting the Scriptures. That is why we see so many "debates" in the Body. Each is making a stand on what they believe the Scriptures say, but they can't say the exact opposite with the same verse. Yet, some Christians read the Scriptures and see one thing and others can see the same verse and see something completely different. The thing is, unless it is an area of salvation, it is simply areas where we will walk out what we believe the Scriptures are saying. For me, I strongly believe that women should NOT be pastors, teachers or hold any position where there is authority over men. For others, they see it differently. For me, I will not go to a church where a woman holds a position of authority over men. For others, they have different views. Rumple, we are ALL here to learn! No one has all truth and no one has arrived at perfection, certainly not me. So, I am right there with you, learning and praying and seeking G-d. So, at the end of the day, we each love Jesus and iron sharpens iron. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumple Posted July 29, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/27/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2007 Shalom Firehill, The "Shepherd" Jesus is talking about in this passage is not women pastors. This is just waaaaay to big of a stretch. There is no Biblical support for saying that because women may tend animals means that women should be ordained as pastors. That's what's called a Red Herring fallacy. Then Jesus is talking about men pastors? Is that a stretch? I don't see 'men' in there anywhere. Do you? LOL. It would seem reasonable that since both men and women were animal shepards that when Christ was talking about spiritual sheparding by only men, He would have said "male/men shepards". Shalom, Nope. The "stretch" is saying that ANYONE other than Jesus is the Shepherd here. He is not talking about pastors in this passage, but Himself, the Good Shepherd. See verses 11, 14-15. And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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