Who is Israel?

[EricH]

I am not here to convince you of anything

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh

No I have not confused anything. You simply take a few sentences and quote them apart from everything else I have said.

No, you are wrong once again and your confusion continues. You first say there are two

[Jedi4Yahweh]

OK - has anyone here advocated the need for Jewish believers to "follow Judaism to be saved?" Where do you keep jumping to these conclusions?

1 Corinthians 7:17-18

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

I did not say you said that or anyone else for that sake. You did made that statement that "Gentles" believers are not required to follow Judaism in order to be saved. Which leaves the questions open of the "Jewish" Believers. It would have been clear if you would have said that both Jew and Gentiles are not required to follow Judaism in order to be saved, but you didn't word it like that.

QUOTE(nebula @ Aug 4 2007, 10:12 PM)

In the OT, Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be considered a part of Israel (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.).

In Acts and the Epistles, we read about the conflict Jewish believers (the bulk and leadership of the "Church" then) had with Gentile believers. Many Jewish believers preached that the Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism in order to follow Jesus. The Apostles ruled otherwise. Thus, the Gentile believers were not required to become a part of Israel in order to be saved.

This leaves the implication and the idea open that "Christian Jew's" are required to follow those things in order to be saved. (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.)

Did you intentionally leave Jews out of the equation???

You could make this all clear by simply stating Jewish Christians nor Gentile Christians are required to follow those thing in order to be saved; rather then arguing by what you meant or or how I understood it.

Not so sure what your implying by the scriptures you posted except that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism. Please clear this up for us all, so all can understand you.

[nebula]

OK - has anyone here advocated the need for Jewish believers to "follow Judaism to be saved?" Where do you keep jumping to these conclusions?

1 Corinthians 7:17-18

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

I did not say you said that or anyone else for that sake. You did made that statement that "Gentles" believers are not required to follow Judaism in order to be saved. Which leaves the questions open of the "Jewish" Believers. It would have been clear if you would have said that both Jew and Gentiles are not required to follow Judaism in order to be saved, but you didn't word it like that.

Jedi - what does the passage say concerning the Jewish believer?

No, Jews do not have to follow Judaism to be saved. But did Paul say they should cease their ways just because he got saved? No! He said the "circumcised" should remain circumcised. Circumcision was the sign of God's covenant given to Abraham and his descendants. Would you take that away from the Jewish believers and their children? If circumcising their children, eating Kosher, keeping Shabat, etc. unites them with this covenant, then let them keep it. I myself would encourage them to do so, not for salvation, not for legalism, but to keep them united with their people and with the Covenant as those "entrusted with the very words of God." (Romans 3:2)

QUOTE(nebula @ Aug 4 2007, 10:12 PM)

In the OT, Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be considered a part of Israel (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.).

In Acts and the Epistles, we read about the conflict Jewish believers (the bulk and leadership of the "Church" then) had with Gentile believers. Many Jewish believers preached that the Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism in order to follow Jesus. The Apostles ruled otherwise. Thus, the Gentile believers were not required to become a part of Israel in order to be saved.

This leaves the implication and the idea open that "Christian Jew's" are required to follow those things in order to be saved. (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.)

Only by assumption.

What did the Apostles do and say with and about their Judaism?

Did you intentionally leave Jews out of the equation???

No - because I was speaking about the Gentile believers in this response. I did not realize you wanted me to explain what I thought the Jewish believers were to do.

You could make this all clear by simply stating Jewish Christians nor Gentile Christians are required to follow those thing in order to be saved; rather then arguing by what you meant or or how I understood it.

I thought I was being clear.

Not so sure what your implying by the scriptures you posted except that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism. Please clear this up for us all, so all can understand you.

I hope I did.

Now, let me ask you - do you have a problem with a believing Jew following Torah? (Circumcision, eating kosher, etc.)

[Guest shiloh357]

{this was done in Microsoft Word (8.5 X 11) with margins set at 0.7 all around - please paste a copy and so-format the form for best comprehension of this Doctrinal Restoration effort}

Why would I want to read or see more of this anti-semitic junk? It's not doctrine, it's racial junk that makes absolutely no sense.

It was posted before and a mod removed it. I have reported it and will have it removed again. It is racist history revisionism.

[Scarletprayers]

{this was done in Microsoft Word (8.5 X 11) with margins set at 0.7 all around - please paste a copy and so-format the form for best comprehension of this Doctrinal Restoration effort}

Why would I want to read or see more of this anti-semitic junk? It's not doctrine, it's racial junk that makes absolutely no sense.

It was posted before and a mod removed it. I have reported it and will have it removed again. It is racist history revisionism.

He's posting it everywhere, I've reported it from another thread.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Jedi - what does the passage say concerning the Jewish believer?

[No, Jews do not have to follow Judaism to be saved. But did Paul say they should cease their ways just because he got saved? No! He said the "circumcised" should remain circumcised. Circumcision was the sign of God's covenant given to Abraham and his descendants. Would you take that away from the Jewish believers and their children? If circumcising their children, eating Kosher, keeping Shabat, etc. unites them with this covenant, then let them keep it. I myself would encourage them to do so, not for salvation, not for legalism, but to keep them united with their people and with the Covenant as those "entrusted with the very words of God." (Romans 3:2)

The argument is not about if circumcision is ok or not, but if it is a requirment for salvation and being a believer. I have already explained that in my last post. Not sure why you are attacking me with that issue.

It says for a Jew to remain circumcised if he is already cicumcised, if he is uncicumcised to remain uncircumcised. Please explain to me how one is to become uncircumcised, please. I think that would be rather hard to accomplish. Paul was in no way telling Jews they must become circumcised to be a Christian, but contrary. I have no problem with circoumcision, except if people are making it a requirement. Pauls whole ministry was fighting those who where trying to legalise the gospel and bring bondage on believers.

You use a lot of BUT's in your respones. There is no BUT to this argument. You either believe that way or you dont. You still have not explained your position on this. You say one thing, then you throw in an exception to the rule. My question was, is it required for Jewish Christians and/or Genitle Christians, not if it was ok.

Now, let me ask you - do you have a problem with a believing Jew following Torah? (Circumcision, eating kosher, etc.)

I noticed that you took out the part about scarifices at the temple. Are Christian Jews still required to perform animal sacrifices? You cant pick and choose which parts of the torah rituals that you want to follow and then live out the rest.

No, I have no problem with a person that wants to be circumcised or eat kosher, unless they are making this a requirement for other believers, Jew or Gentile.

[nebula]

Troll spam?

[Vickilynn]

It would be also wrong to teach that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism to be saved. (circumcision, eating Kosher, animal sacrifices, etc...) They were only shadows of what was to come under the New Covenant. These were completed in Christ. These things play no part in ones salvation for Jew or Gentile. They do have spiritual implications to learn from. Is it ok for a Jew or anyone else to practise these things? Sure, except for the animal sacrifices, but they are not required to be saved. Someone that teaches others including Jews that they are required to follow these are simply not under the New Covenant of Christ and aer bringing people under bondage. These people are what Paul called wolves in sheeps cloting.

Shalom Jedi,

I'm not Neb, but she has never said that Jews are required to follow "Judaism" to be saved. Also, you are derailing the topic of "Who Is Israel" with this train of posting.

The question is "Who Is Israel."

Just for the record, Jews are saved the same way Gentiles are...by coming to the Cross of Yeshua and offering up their lives to Him.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

It would be also wrong to teach that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism to be saved. (circumcision, eating Kosher, animal sacrifices, etc...) They were only shadows of what was to come under the New Covenant. These were completed in Christ. These things play no part in ones salvation for Jew or Gentile. They do have spiritual implications to learn from. Is it ok for a Jew or anyone else to practise these things? Sure, except for the animal sacrifices, but they are not required to be saved. Someone that teaches others including Jews that they are required to follow these are simply not under the New Covenant of Christ and aer bringing people under bondage. These people are what Paul called wolves in sheeps cloting.

Shalom Jedi,

Just for the record, Jews are saved the same way Gentiles are...by coming to the Cross of Yeshua and offering up their lives to Him.

Aman!!! Vicklynn that is what I wanted to hear...........and yes it is a little off the subject.