Who is Israel?

[Guest]

Let me ask this question...By what means is Israel restored?

When Israel Sees Jesus

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah 12:10

Whosoever

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:14-16

Looks, Lives

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Numbers 21:8

Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Forgive me I should have been more clear. I should have said aspect of salvation. What aspect of salvation are you speaking of.

Salvation is both being saved from sin and saved into Christ. Israel was saved from bondage in Egypt and saved into Promised Land.

I would like to ask this. Is it anyway possilbe for it not to be bad theology? Could it be possible that it is not seen just as Christ was not seen as the Messiah?

No, and No to both questions. There are rules that apply to how we determine what a type is or is not a type, and Israel is never portrayed as a type of the Church. It is not seen because it simply is not there.

Ok but what does that mean. By God's hand. There is not doubt that Israel is being restored to thier land, but that is too low. There is a bigger restoration in view.

We are in a process of Israel's restoration. In passages I provided which you really should read, Israel's physical restoration precedes their spiritual restoration. God Himself is doing this. It is his hand, His power His Will that is making it happen. God is demonstrating His faithfulness to His word and bringing Israel back to life.

Is not the resortation that Paul desired for his kinsmen to God thru Christ?

Of course, but the Church has made that next to impossible since it has mercilessly and brutally persecuted the Jews down through centuries. People denigrate the Jews for rejecting Christ, but their denigration foments an eviron where no Jew would want Christ. The Church in its folly has made Jesus undesirable to the Jewish people.

Was this not Israels folly. Where they not looking for a literal king to restore them to thier literal land.

Why would that be folly? It was prophesied to happen. What they were looking for, at least the religious ones that is, was for a political Messiah/deliverer to come and free them from Roman occupation. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with them wanting that.

But Christ did not come in this way...nor did he come for just for the sake of the sand of Abraham.

No He didn't come in the way they wanted. But He will one day. He is prophesied to one day sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and rule the world for 1,000 years before the final consummation of all things pertaining to this world.

[Guest shiloh357]

When Israel was saved from Egypt did they get to the promised land in one day. Or did they have to go thru a process. Likewise we are reconciled to God, and saved daily in the life of Christ being conformed to His image. This does not happen overnight.

Israel would have entered the Promised Land in a day or two after Sinai, but it was their disobedience that kept them from enjoying it. The wilderness experience was not in God's orginal plan. The wilderness was not part of a process. It was never God's original intent that they go through the wilderness for 40 years. Israel was saved in ONE day. They were saved when the death angel passed over and and when they left egypt. Yet, we see another type in the entrance into the Promised Land. I don't really see the conundrum.

I know you dont like the use of the word church, but it is here.

Copy and paste where I said that I don't like the use of the word "Church." Where did you get that notion???

The Church is nothing less than the Body of Christ, God's spiritual house. There may be people that persecuted the Jews, but not the Church.

It was the institutional Church that persecuted the Jews. I did not blame true followers of Christ for that. I have been careful to make that distinction.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

You guys seem to be getting way off subject and splitting hairs.

Who is Israel?

There are two answers to this question which some seem to be mixing together.

1) In the flesh...Israel is a nation located in the middle-east which belongs to the physical descendants of Jacob.

2) In the spirit... Israel is a spiritual kingdom that is not of this world that belongs to all believers both Jew and Gentile. This is the kingdom of God. These people are the true children of Abraham, not in flesh but in spirit and faith.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Who is Israel?

There are two answers to this question which some seem to be mixing together.

1) In the flesh...Israel is a nation located in the middle-east which belongs to the physical descendants of Jacob.

2) In the spirit... Israel is a spiritual kingdom that is not of this world that belongs to all believers both Jew and Gentile. This is the kingdom of God. These people are the true children of Abraham, not in flesh but in spirit and faith.

Is the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) both Jew and Gentile - the same as the "church of God", "the true children of Abraham"?

Thats an Amen, bro...

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh

[Vickilynn]

Shiloh

[Guest shiloh357]

The Kingdom of God is Israel, and Gentiles who join Messiah's ekklesia are joined to Israel/The Kingdom.

One way to read this is that the Gentile believers have now joined the common wealth of Israel or Gentile believers are now citizens of Israel. Not the nation of Israel but the Spiritual Kingdom of God. Now if I am a citizen that means I belong to that country. So if I was a born a Mexican and became a citizen of the United States legally I would now be an United States American.

So technically Christians are citizens of Israel we have joined the common wealth of Israel. Christians are spiritually citizens of Israel and can be called Israelites or Spiritual Israel.

Thanks for bringing that up....

Christians are part of Israel, yes. I have no problem with that. They are not "spiritual Israel." That is not a biblical term. There is no such thing as "spiritual Israel." There is simply "Israel." When you use the term "spiritual Israel" it implies that there is another entity God calls "Israel" and that is not supported by the Scriptures. All you have in the NT is Gentiles simply joining Israel.

What is being asserted in this thread is that Christians are THE true Israel that sets aside biblical Israel and therefore, biblical Israel is seen has no longer having a part in God's prophetic plan. What you will find in this thread is several who believe that biblical Israel has been abolished permanently by God and relegated to the dustbin of history never to heard from again, and that God has replaced them with a "new Israel."

The result of that theological trainwreck is that any end time references to God blessing Israel in the OT, are immediatley reinterpreted to refer to the Church age since, for nearly two thousand years most of the Church have looked upon the Jews and their nation as permanently judged by God. Any blessings God might have for Israel cannot, in the minds of many theologians, be taken literally.

So, this punitive view that theologians have for biblical Israel, coupled with the heresy that the Church is the "true Israel" has created a doctrinal monstrosity that has produced a generally negative and antagonistic atmosphere between the Christians and the Jewish people and has kept Jewish people away from the gospel.

One of the greatest tragedies of Christendom is that the doctrine of "Israel" = "The Church" is that it has been Satan's tool to keep the Jews lost and without hope in Christ. That is the reason Replacement Theology is such an offensive, dangerous and demonic doctrine.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Here is some interesting scripture:

Rom 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken no effect. For they are not all Israel, who are descendants from Israel? (7) Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

According to this passage of scripture. Paul says that just because your born a Jew does not make you a Jew and they are not the children of God according to the flesh. Paul states that the true children of the promise are those of spirit and faith (both Jew and Gentile). These are the true children of God and Abraham; the promise is meant for them and not those according to the flesh.

Based on this scripture unbelieveing Israel is not the true Israel....so who is the true Israel???

[Guest]

Based on this scripture unbelieving Israel is not the true Israel....so who is the true Israel???

Awe Come On - You Know - BELIEVING ISRAEL

The Nation Grows

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:25

As Israel Hears The Voice Of The Lord

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Ezekiel 37:4-5

Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Gonna Walk Aroun'

Dem bones, dem bones gonna walk aroun'

Dem bones, dem bones, gonna walk aroun'

Dem bones, dem bones, gonna walk aroun'

I hear the word of the Lord!

http://ingeb.org/spiritua/demdrybo.html

Oh! Oh!

Almost To Wonderful To Think Upon

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Psalms 103:17

Pray Without Ceasing

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Psalm 122:6

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

[25] The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

[26] The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

[27] And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Puppy Powered Post

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Matthew 15:25-27