Guest shiloh357 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 A question for you then. Are you saying that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father? Jesus said (as recorded in John 14)... 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. To offer a question as I did which points to a distinction between our heavenly Father and His Son is not to deny who Christ is. Jesus is the Christ because He alone is the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. From my perspective there is a misunderstanding of the relationship that one has to the other. For Jesus himself said, I came from the Father and entered the world, now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. If you love me you would be glad that I am going to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted August 18, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted August 18, 2007 A question for you then. Are you saying that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father? Jesus said (as recorded in John 14)... 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. To offer a question as I did which points to a distinction between our heavenly Father and His Son is not to deny who Christ is. Jesus is the Christ because He alone is the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. From my perspective there is a misunderstanding of the relationship that one has to the other. For Jesus himself said, I came from the Father and entered the world, now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. If you love me you would be glad that I am going to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I beg to differ. It is like saying you are royalty because you are the son of the king - but you are not the king. Divinity is not necessarily deity. I don't know where you are pulling your definition of Divinity from, but the defintion Divinity is the nature or quality of being God. You are really reaching on that one. Divinity can only be attributed to Deity. The problem you still have not addressed, and I can imagine why you won't address it, is the passages I referred to when Jesus applied to Himself a term that God applied to Himself. God referred to Himself as the first and the last. How does Jesus also become the first and the last if God is the first and the last? You seem to have wanted to brush those verses under the rug, but I am going to keep reminding you of them until you actually address the words of Jesus which I cited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebmilc Posted August 18, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 204 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/07/1949 Share Posted August 18, 2007 A question for you then. Are you saying that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father? Jesus said (as recorded in John 14)... 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. To offer a question as I did which points to a distinction between our heavenly Father and His Son is not to deny who Christ is. Jesus is the Christ because He alone is the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. From my perspective there is a misunderstanding of the relationship that one has to the other. For Jesus himself said, I came from the Father and entered the world, now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. If you love me you would be glad that I am going to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwbswiaihl Posted August 20, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 6 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2007 actually the verse used from phil 3 says that Jesus being found equal with God, one cannot be equal unless He is God otherwise he would not be equal. Jesus clearly says that He and God are one(john 10:30). In Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord the King of Israel and His Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts I am the First and I am the Last besides Me there is no God. This verse states that the King and His Redeemer are both spoken of as being in the singular besides Me there is no God. Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one. Titus 2:13 looking for our blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Savior and Great God Jesus Christ. Sounds like the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write that Jesus was our Savior and God. Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the End says the Lord, who is and who is to come the Almighty. Here Jesus is clearly the Almighty God else He could not be almighty. I could go on and on and show that Jesus indeed not only said that He is God and also many Old and NT verses show that God the Father and Jesus are both said to be the Savior, the First and the Last, the Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, the Almighty. Only one blinded cannot see that these truths are clearly taught in the Bible. As for why Jesus is said to have learned obedience in Heb 5:8 when on earth He walk as man and the first verses used in Phil 3 shows that He laid aside His equality(though He was still God and Man). Remember this great verse for all who believe, Ps 17:15 last part I will be satisfied when I awake in His likeness. The glory of our resurrection bodies will shine forever(Daniel 12:30) and when the Chief Shepherd appears we will receive the Crown of Glory which does not fade away. This is the resurrection body as Daniel talks about , I ran across these as I was studying the other day and have not come down to earth yet. Thank God through His Son by His Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted August 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted August 20, 2007 We went through all this earlier in this thread Mutzrein in our talk on "Natures", the problem is you are just not listening. A dictionary definition of Divinity says "Divine nature, Deity, Godhood. I had to look this up as I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 But you know all this is rather academic and nothing to do with the gospel. In fact quite the opposite. It has everything to do with the Gospel. A mere man could not die for the sins of the world. If Jesus is not God, then he is no different than Mohammud or Buddha. He is nothing more than a good teacher. You still have not dealt with Jesus' own admission that He is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted August 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted August 20, 2007 But you know all this is rather academic and nothing to do with the gospel. In fact quite the opposite. It has everything to do with the Gospel. A mere man could not die for the sins of the world. If Jesus is not God, then he is no different than Mohammud or Buddha. He is nothing more than a good teacher. You still have not dealt with Jesus' own admission that He is God. I agree, a mere man could not atone for the sin of the world. But he was not a mere man. So, incase you are wondering what I DO believe of Jesus I will say this. I believe and proclaim that Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. I have no hesitation in saying He is my Lord & Saviour. And I am an heir of God, a co-heir with Christ, who has received the Spirit of sonship. It is the Spirit of God which testifies with my spirit that I am his son. No doctrine, no law, no creed has made me a son of God, but God himself. And no man can take it away. I abide in Christ and He in Me. And with an understanding, even in part, of God's grace and mercy shown toward me I can also say, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahweh is salvation Posted August 20, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2007 Jesus Himself said that He's God. I and my Father are one. (John 10:30 KJV) Hardly. John also records, "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 But you know all this is rather academic and nothing to do with the gospel. In fact quite the opposite. It has everything to do with the Gospel. A mere man could not die for the sins of the world. If Jesus is not God, then he is no different than Mohammud or Buddha. He is nothing more than a good teacher. You still have not dealt with Jesus' own admission that He is God. I agree, a mere man could not atone for the sin of the world. But he was not a mere man. So, incase you are wondering what I DO believe of Jesus I will say this. I believe and proclaim that Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. I have no hesitation in saying He is my Lord & Saviour. You have just defined Him as God, but reject Him as God. That is a strange way your mind works. Jesus could not have the perfect attributes attributed to the Father and not be God, because God says, there is no one like Him. So for Jesus to have God the Father's attributes would make him like God. Furthermore, because you obvious don't know Hebrew, you don't understand what "Son of God" means. It does not mean that Jesus is the offspring of God. It is a title that denotes equality, in Hebrew. One has to some mighty fancy theological gymnastics to get around the Bible. If Jesus is your Lord and Savior, howcome you don't believe Him when He says He is God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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