Is Jesus Yahweh?

[WayneB]

Thankyou Wayne. However, I am not quite sure what you are saying. Are you saying that I am a servant of unrighteousness?

I'm not saying or advising anything other than to follow the Word of God and TEST the spirit...

"...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"! 1 John 4:1a

We're going round and round here. I don't expect you (or others) to all of a sudden set aside your long held beliefs and ideas and instantly change. As Shiloh pointed out, you and others have been directed to passages of Scripture that clearly reflect God's nature, claims, prophecy and expectations for His children. We could spend the next year going page by page, Scripture by Scripture and still not get anywhere. The thing that ALL of us should and are called to do is simple...

TEST the spirit...

...because if you have based your conclusions on "feelings" only and not the written and infallible Word of God as revealed in the Bible, you have not tested the spirit.

What kind of people would we be if we didn't warn you? We are NOT judging you; we are only sharing the truth as revealed in the Word of God as His Spirit gives understanding. We need BOTH, which is why God provided... His Spirit and His Word.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

[Mutzrein]

Thankyou Wayne. However, I am not quite sure what you are saying. Are you saying that I am a servant of unrighteousness?

I'm not saying or advising anything other than to follow the Word of God and TEST the spirit...

"...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"! 1 John 4:1a

We're going round and round here. I don't expect you (or others) to all of a sudden set aside your long held beliefs and ideas and instantly change. As Shiloh pointed out, you and others have been directed to passages of Scripture that clearly reflect God's nature, claims, prophecy and expectations for His children. We could spend the next year going page by page, Scripture by Scripture and still not get anywhere. The thing that ALL of us should and are called to do is simple...

TEST the spirit...

...because if you have based your conclusions on "feelings" only and not the written and infallible Word of God as revealed in the Bible, you have not tested the spirit.

What kind of people would we be if we didn't warn you? We are NOT judging you; we are only sharing the truth as revealed in the Word of God as His Spirit gives understanding. We need BOTH, which is why God provided... His Spirit and His Word.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

Thankyou for your gracious response.

Briefly, my long held beliefs and ideas are not what you think. For I have to say that after coming to the Lord 27 years ago I embraced Jesus

[MrLuke]

You know, I have searched the scriptures and I cannot see any evidence of the notion that believing that Jesus is God is a pre-requisite for salvation. I can however see much which points to a righteousness which can only come by faith in Christ. And this is not of the intellect. Not of human decision, but of God.

So I'm just trying to understand here.. how do you explain who Jesus is without Him being God, deity? Just an exemplary man who was completly full of the Spirit? Or someone who was pre-existant before time began, having the qualities of God, yet not actually being worthy to be called God?

I'm just trying to understand what you think here. I've seen everyone just post Scripture after Scripture and then explain how they read them, but I just want to see what you think in the most basic way, if that's not too much to ask?

[Mutzrein]

You know, I have searched the scriptures and I cannot see any evidence of the notion that believing that Jesus is God is a pre-requisite for salvation. I can however see much which points to a righteousness which can only come by faith in Christ. And this is not of the intellect. Not of human decision, but of God.

So I'm just trying to understand here.. how do you explain who Jesus is without Him being God, deity? Just an exemplary man who was completly full of the Spirit? Or someone who was pre-existant before time began, having the qualities of God, yet not actually being worthy to be called God?

I'm just trying to understand what you think here. I've seen everyone just post Scripture after Scripture and then explain how they read them, but I just want to see what you think in the most basic way, if that's not too much to ask?

Not too much to ask at all.

Jesus is the Word of God. He is the one through whom God has created all things. The first born of all creation. He was sent by God as His Christ

[Yahweh is salvation]

You know, I have searched the scriptures and I cannot see any evidence of the notion that believing that Jesus is God is a pre-requisite for salvation. I can however see much which points to a righteousness which can only come by faith in Christ. And this is not of the intellect. Not of human decision, but of God.

So I'm just trying to understand here.. how do you explain who Jesus is without Him being God, deity? Just an exemplary man who was completly full of the Spirit? Or someone who was pre-existant before time began, having the qualities of God, yet not actually being worthy to be called God?

I'm just trying to understand what you think here. I've seen everyone just post Scripture after Scripture and then explain how they read them, but I just want to see what you think in the most basic way, if that's not too much to ask?

Not too much to ask at all.

Jesus is the Word of God. He is the one through whom God has created all things. The first born of all creation. He was sent by God as His Christ

[WayneB]

As it says in John, The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

...and John 1:1 also says that the Word was God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And perhaps it would be good to be reminded of a few other verses in John 4. No man hath seen God at any time.

... speaking of God in the fullness of His glory, no one has yet to see Him. Moses came close but caught just a glimpse of his back. Exodus 33:21-23 Peter, John and James saw Him in His transfigured flesh, where "His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light." Matthew 17 He also appeared in His resurrected flesh to "Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles," and then to Paul. 1 Corinthians 15 BUT never in the fullness of His glory for no one can see Him and live. Exodus 33:18,19

You know, I have searched the scriptures and I cannot see any evidence of the notion that believing that Jesus is God is a pre-requisite for salvation. I can however see much which points to a righteousness which can only come by faith in Christ. And this is not of the intellect. Not of human decision, but of God.

...no one is saying that there are "prerequisites" to salvation other than believing God... taking Him at His word. You wrongly keep likening our testimony to that of the Pharisees whereby "their righteousness was based on adherence to the law." We are not speaking of the Law here. We are not saying that you can "work" your way to salvation through adhering to certain"prerequisites". You are twisting and applying a spin to the words.

What we are saying is simple.

What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:3

Why do you keep engaging us in discussion? We have offered sound teaching and good advice that any follower of Christ should be able to agree upon... TEST the spirits. I don't doubt your sincerity and I know you don't doubt mine so what is your purpose? IF you are firm in you FAITH and have no doubts, why would you continue to discuss? Who are you trying to convince?

... TEST the spirits.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

[MrLuke]

If God called Jesus,"God" like he called the others, then why is he the only one who is God, MrLuke?

Because there is only one true God?

[Mutzrein]

As it says in John, The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

...and John 1:1 also says that the Word was God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And perhaps it would be good to be reminded of a few other verses in John 4. No man hath seen God at any time.

... speaking of God in the fullness of His glory, no one has yet to see Him. Moses came close but caught just a glimpse of his back. Exodus 33:21-23 Peter, John and James saw Him in His transfigured flesh, where "His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light." Matthew 17 He also appeared in His resurrected flesh to "Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles," and then to Paul. 1 Corinthians 15 BUT never in the fullness of His glory for no one can see Him and live. Exodus 33:18,19

You know, I have searched the scriptures and I cannot see any evidence of the notion that believing that Jesus is God is a pre-requisite for salvation. I can however see much which points to a righteousness which can only come by faith in Christ. And this is not of the intellect. Not of human decision, but of God.

...no one is saying that there are "prerequisites" to salvation other than believing God... taking Him at His word. You wrongly keep likening our testimony to that of the Pharisees whereby "their righteousness was based on adherence to the law." We are not speaking of the Law here. We are not saying that you can "work" your way to salvation through adhering to certain"prerequisites". You are twisting and applying a spin to the words.

What we are saying is simple.

What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:3

Why do you keep engaging us in discussion? We have offered sound teaching and good advice that any follower of Christ should be able to agree upon... TEST the spirits. I don't doubt your sincerity and I know you don't doubt mine so what is your purpose? IF you are firm in you FAITH and have no doubts, why would you continue to discuss? Who are you trying to convince?

... TEST the spirits.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

wayne

The reason I have continued to discuss is this. There are those who it seems would seek to shut the kingdom of heaven in men

[MrLuke]

Not too much to ask at all.

Jesus is the Word of God. He is the one through whom God has created all things. The first born of all creation. He was sent by God as His Christ

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree, and if I may ad somethin Mutzrein.

In your Scriptures doesn't God say, "You are gods"? You can't argue with the Scripyures, and God spoke to those people and called them gods. So why do you accuse me of a terrible sin for saying that I am the Son of God (God).

If God called Jesus,"God" like he called the others, then why is he the only one who is God, MrLuke?

Yes, you are referring to the following Psalm partially quoted by Jesus:

A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!

(Psalms 82:1-8)

What you need to understand is that this verse applies to magistrates. The word "elohim" is used three different ways in Hebrew and the context determines the usage. It is used to refer to God, to angels and to human magistrates/governors or legislators. God is expressing anger that their corrupt use of their authority. He is not calling men "gods" in the absolute sense.

Jesus was applying this passage to the leaders/magitrates/ of 1st Century Israel. The clear implication in the passage, and there are othere places in the gospels as well, where it is implied that they knew that Jesus was the Messiah, which is what made their trechory that much worse. Their rejection of Jesusby His enemies may not have been based upon unbelief per se, but because they were actually opposed to the coming of Messiah and the upset His appearing would bring their puppet positions given to Him by Rome. Some of Israel's leaders were so corrupt, the last thing they wanted was a Messiah.

Often, we seem to put the Jews of 1st century into this monolithic mold as if they ALL looked for the Messiah, but not all of them did. If it was not clear who Jesus was, there would be no reason to work so hard at discrediting Him. They could not refute Him, so all that was left was to kill Him.

So, since they probably knew who Jesus was and rejected Him anyway, their charge of blasphemy was unfounded, particularly since there was nothing in Jesus' works or ministry that indicated that blasphemy had taken place.