firehill Posted August 9, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2007 Below is not the origninal source I learned from about the similarites between the Talmud and Paul's quote but it'll do for now: Dr. Adam Clarke comments that the prohibition against women speaking in the churches in I Corinthians 14:34 was actually a Jewish ordinance and points out that the rabbis taught that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted August 9, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Thank you Keilan for bringing this up. Now at first I wasn't even going to bother to read it because I've questioned it for months and NO ONE had given me a satisfactory explanation. But Hallelujah!! You all here finally did it! (I even went to church 2 sundays in a row with a scarf on my head (no offense to any who believe they should cover their hair) and held back my 'amens'. So in light of Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus, i feel much more free to be stronger for the Lord. Thanks again. And thanks my brother joe, i am comforted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Davies Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Paul was addressing the problem of decency and order (the lack thereof) in the Corinthian church. Remember, Philip had 7 daughters that prophecied. Where did they prophecy? Paul instructs us that prophecy is for the edification of the church. Peter quotes Joel when he explains the day of Pentacost and sais that "your sons and daughter will prophecy". Where are they going to prophecy except in the church. I hope this helps, God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted August 9, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Knowing Jewish families as I have for many years I can say that it is likely that the women AND men were talking loudly. The Jewish people were a free-er people in that respect. However, the religious meetings should have been different. And they also had the problem that Paul being the forerunner in honoring and respecting women's participation, the women were more likely out of control in an atmosphere they had been previously limited in. It is well known that the Pharisaic rules about women were severely demeaning and restrictive. But as to what that section of Scripture is about ...... let's first look at Dr. Nylands notes from The Source NT: "3. These words (vs. 34-35) are a quotation from the letter sent to Paul by the church in Corinth. He quotes from this letter in 7:1, refers to it in 7:25, 36, 39; 8:1; 9:3. The language in the quotation resembles known Jewish oral law, cf. S. Aalen, "A Rabbinic Formula in 1 Cor. 14:34", in F. Cross (ed) Studia Evangelica, II-III. Papers, Berlin 1964, pp. 513-25; Holmes, op.cit.,p 235. 4. This passage (vs. 34-35) has been terribly mistranslated. It has been put in as Paul's words, instead of a quote, and the following two instances of the disjunctive particle "Utter rubbish!" have been deleted. See the following for evidence that this passage is quoted by Paul, followed by his vehement disagreement with it: D.W.Odell-Scott, "Let the Women Speak in Church. An Egalitarian Interpretation of 1 Cor. 14:33b-36"., Biblical Theology Bulletin Vol. XIII (1983), pp. 90-93; N.M.Flanagan and E.H. Snyder, "Did Paul Put Women Down in 1 Cor. 14:34-36?" Biblical Theology Bulletin Vo. XI, January 1981, pp 10-12; W.C. Kaiser, Jnr., "Paul, Women and the Church," Worldwide Challenge, September, 1976, pp. 9-12; J. Harper, Women and the Gospel, (G.B.:Pinner, 1974), pp 14-15; J. Sidlow Baxter, Explore the Book, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1987); J. A. Anderson, Women's Warfare and Ministry:What Saith the Scriptures? (Stonehaven: David Waldie, 1933), pp.20-26; K.C. Bushnell, God's Word to Women, (Mossvile, Il: God's Word to Women Publishers, n.d.): G. Bilezikina, op.cit.,pp 144-153,284-5. For a survey of current scholarship see J.M. Holmes, op.,cit.,pp. 229-238. The Classical scholar J.M. Holmes (ibid.,p237) (speaking of Paul) states, "He quotes the factional view (which he knows is not generally held), angrily rebukes its proponents, states his own authority, exhorts everyone to be eager to prophesy, and commands that no one forbid anyone to speak in tongues." The Source NT: 'The women must be silent in the assemblies: for they are not allowed to speak, but to be supportive, just as indeed the law states. And if they want to learn something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is a disgrace for women to speak in assembly.' "Utter rubbish! Did the Word of God come originally from you! Utter rubbish! Were you the only ones that it reached! Several Greek theologians have come to designate vs. 34-35 as an interpolation. That means that they are a quote of someone elses words. It's a long list, but a few of them are Fee, Epp, Grady, Giles, Conzelmann, Payne, Canart.... and more. I also found this quote: Out of respect to the congregation, a woman should not herself read in the law. It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men. The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness. ....from Mishna sotah 3.4;B sotah 20a. J. Lee Grady said this about it: "It should be noted that the Jewish Talmud is a collection of comments by rabbis who disagree, and the statement here about the "obscenity" of teaching women the law of God is challenged. However, many scholars of early Jewish thought believe the quote here represents the prevalent opinion of rabbis in the first century. Women were not allowed to study the Torah or to become disciples of rabbis." In my opinion this is likely where the comment in verses 34-35 came from, from the Talmudic law. But Paul could not have agreed with it since he promoted women in ministry, honored and acknowledged their service in the Lord. It is likely though that there were Jewish Christians who still thought that way. In many ways, it seems, Jesus' thinking was different than the way of thinking in the time He walked the earth. Luke 10:38-42 38Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. If Jesus were in agreement with men of that age, He would have told her to "get to work in the kitchen, only men allowed in this lesson", but the God of the universe felt she had just as much a right to stay there as anyone else in that house. How much better a lesson at Jesus' feet than a cold man-filled assembly. 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KeilanS Posted August 9, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,763 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/23/1990 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 None! I had completely forgotten about that passage! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted August 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2007 Shalom Keilan, However, that passage says nothing about women SPEAKING in the assembly. There is no law, no mandate, nothing that says a woman cannot learn at the feet of Jesus! However, Paul says clearly that a woman should not teach men, should not have authority over men and should be silent in the assembly. Let's not confuse the 2 issues of learning (silently) and speaking in church. And we must go by Scripture, not men's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted August 10, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted August 10, 2007 None! I had completely forgotten about that passage! Thank you. You're welcome. It went under the category of "way of thinking" or mentality of Christ, who made it clear He was not a respecter of persons. Example: when His mother and brothers came to see Him. Since God said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways...", and we can see for ourselves in the Gospels Matthew through John that the followers and apostles of Jesus took a little bit of time understanding what Jesus was teaching and what to teach others. The greatest Teacher is the Holy Spirit who dwells in all of us children of God. Fraught brought up a great passage: Galatians 3:26-29 Sons of God 26)You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27)for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28)There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29)If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. If a church group wants to stick with "Culture B.C." that developed after the fall of man, keeping their women as good as slaves, they can go right ahead, but that's not what God tells me. He tells me we are all equal in His eyes, "like the angels". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted August 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2007 Shalom, The Bible says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, slave or free, male and female for acquiring grace. It does not state there is NO MORE. Of course, we are not all one sex. We are male and female, and as such, the Bible states we have different roles. That verse is misused to state we are all one sex now. I say, look in the mirror. There are still males and females, but all are equal in grace and salvation and love, yet in the Body as in the marriage, we have different roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted August 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2007 Shalom, The Bible says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, slave or free, male and female for acquiring grace. It does not state there is NO MORE. Of course, we are not all one sex. We are male and female, and as such, the Bible states we have different roles. That verse is misused to state we are all one sex now. I say, look in the mirror. There are still males and female, but all are equal in grace and salvation and love, yet in the Body as in the marriage, we have different roles. Vickilynn, you are SUCH a blessing to Worthy!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted August 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2007 Shalom, The Bible says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, slave or free, male and female for acquiring grace. It does not state there is NO MORE. Of course, we are not all one sex. We are male and female, and as such, the Bible states we have different roles. That verse is misused to state we are all one sex now. I say, look in the mirror. There are still makes and female, but all are equal in grace and salvation and love, yet in the Body as in the marriage, we have different roles. Vickilynn, you are SUCH a blessing to Worthy!!!!! Shalom Emily Anne, All glory goes to the L-rd! Oooops, the typo. I fixed it. Should say "males" not makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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