This passage has troubled me...

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

from CARM, a well-respected Biblical site.

http://www.carm.org/questions/womenpastors3.htm

CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY

www.carm.org

Another response to a paper arguing for women being pastors

The following is a response from the pastor who's original article was answered here. We have reproduced it along with CARM's response. I was under the impression that I had permission to reproduce his original article and have since received confirmation that I may reproduce it as well as this one. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding in this matter previously.

Is the issue of women pastors serious enough to warrant multiple responses? The answer is most assuredly yes. The reason is because the Christian church has a tendency to move into apostasy; after all, we are sinners by nature. But when the Scriptures clearly teach on a topic, and if the Christian were to go against that clear teaching, it then becomes necessary to address the issue.

Please understand that it is not the position of CARM that women are to be belittled, or are subservient to men. CARM's position is that women are underutilized and underappreciated in the church. But this does not mean that it is okay to violate scripture's teaching concerning eldership. The Scripture is our guide and we must submit our preference to it -- whether or not it is popular, comfortable, or likeable. To do otherwise is to sin against God.

Of course, there will be those who say that this is a debatable issue and that we should not declare someone's opinion to be authoritative and then force that opinion upon others. Doesn't Rom. 14:1-12, when speaking of debatable issues, declare that we should be gracious to those with whom we disagree? Yes, it does, but we must realize that because someone debates an issue does not mean is inherently debatable. Mormons, for example, will debate whether or not people can become gods since they affirm it is possible. But the Scriptures clearly teach they cannot (Isaiah 43:10). Therefore, just because it's debated does not mean it is debatable.

Basically, there are three reasons why those who claim to be Christians will affirm that women can be elders and pastors.

1. They are ignorant of what the Bible truly teaches in this matter.

2. They are listening to the opinions of non-Christian society and are projecting those preferences upon the scriptures.

3. They are not regenerate, do not have the Spirit of God in them, and cannot discern spiritual matters (1 Cor. 2:14).

Taking God's word seriously is the obligation of every Christian who should submit his/her preferences to it. But, sadly, this is not happening enough in the Christian church today. We must all be mindful of the warning of 2 Tim. 4:1, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires." Christians should never be so arrogant as to say, "Thank you Lord that I am not like other people who gather to themselves teachers who tickle their own ears." (See Luke 18:10-14).

What we need in Christianity is more people who will stand for the truth of God's Word instead of trying to water it down in order to meet the needs and preferences of the politically correct or the unregenerate. To such a heresy CARM says boldly, may it never be!

CARM calls out to Christian men to stand upon the word whether it is popular or not, whether it is easy or not, and whether it costs them or not. Women pastors exist because of the failure Christian men, and this failure extends all too often into the pulpit.

The elders and pastors of Christian churches need to be called to account for allowing women pastors. They need to be rebuked publically.

*

1 Tim. 5:19, "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning."

CARM takes this warning seriously which is why the first article from the same pastor did not include his name or the church. It was my contention show respect to a pastor who leads God's flock. Therefore, in this paper I still seek to show that same respect. Nevertheless, this pastor is in error as will be shown in the analysis of his defense of is position.

Should we leave a church over this?

Is this an issue worth leaving a church over? In my opinion (Matt Slick, president of CARM) yes it is. If a pastor cannot discern such clear teaching of Scripture and instead imposes upon the word of God faulty exegesis and faulty logic (as he has done and does do in his response), then in my opinion, I would be forced to leave. I would not be able to trust his judgment concerning the rest of the word of God. Again, this is my opinion.

What about those who have invested years in a church when a woman pastor is introduced? Should they leave or just stick it out in silent disagreement? It is ultimately up to the individual Christian to answer this question. But, I offer my opinion. If I were to continue to attend that church, then am I not publicly displaying my support for the eldership of that church in its actions and teaching in this regard?

If more Christians across the world were to study biblical theology, stand up for it, and sacrifice some comfort, then the pulpits would be that much better. Truth is truth. Stand on the truth.

Also, if the elders of the church approved of having a woman pastor, then I would not be able to trust them either since they are not acting as competent elders and are not refuting error. Please consider the following twelve qualifications of being an elder.

1. The elder must be above reproach (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).

2. The husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).

3. Have children who believe (Titus 1:6 ;1 Tim. 3:4).

4. Not be a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).

5.

Should be self controlled and temperate (Titus 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:2).

6. Must be honorable, hospitable, seeking good (Titus 1:7).

7. Have a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:7).

8. Not be addicted to wine (1 Tim. 3:3).

9.

Not be greedy (1 Tim. 3:3).

10. Able to exhort (teach) sound doctrine (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).

11. Able to refute false teaching (Titus 1:9)

12. Must be ready to earn his own living if necessary (Acts 20:17, 33-35).

Points 10 and 11 above are applicable here. If the elders (who must be male per #2) of a church do not correct the teaching of having a woman pastor, then they are not doing their job and should not be elders.

Is this making a mountain out of a mole hill? No, it is not. The Scriptures teach that an elder must be the husband of one wife. The authority issue related to it is based not on culture but on God's created order (as will be demonstrated below). Therefore, CARM takes the position of standing on God's Word and believing what it says in spite of political correctness, social influence, or personal preferences, as every Christian should do.

Finally, it is my understanding that I had permission to use the pastor's article in my earlier examination which is why I reproduced his previous work and analyzed it. I also have received permission to use this response from him to which I'm also examining. This is to be commended on the part of the pastor.

Apparently, someone asked him why he did not include two important verses in his analysis of the issue of women pastors. Following is his published response.

------------------

ORIGINAL: "Dear Pastor,

Thank you so much for your article declaring your stand on women as pastors. In your response you clear that many of my questions, but I still have two:

1) 1 TIM 2:12 regarding not permitting a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, and

2) 1 TIM 3:12 the standard for deacons.

Thank you for your time. I await your response.

Mr. A."

ORIGINAL: "Dear Mr A,

"Thank you for your kind letter asking for explanations regarding 1 Tim 2:12 and 1 Tim 3:12. If you took notice (which I'm sure you did), I purposely did not address the issues that can be argued concerning women in ministry. I have found that to argue these issues accomplishes little. Well, actually it does accomplish something -- division. Instead, I simply presented a case which I believe had clear Biblical support for woman to function as ordained ministers of the gospel in Biblical context. Everything in life has a Biblical context -- love, sex, hate, confrontation, war, peace, dancing, mourning, killing, marriage, money, work, prayer, holiness, people in ministry, etc.. God clearly defines and contextualizes. This is what keeps the universe (God

[Karen C.]

As a creditialed minister with the Assembly of God (& a WOMAN) and under authority of the denomination, I find this topic very tedious and unfruitful.

If you are a woman and called to ministry and you are under a covering , you are fullfilling what the LORD has called you to do WHY does that bother so many on this message board?

If the Lord finds them unfit HE will remove them.. He has managed His church so far with out our opinions!

OT or NT~Those who are going to be lead astray will be lead, whether it be by a woman or a man.

As I travel through out Oklahoma and I visit many AG churches.. Some are more welcoming that others. The message I bring about the ministry I am involved in is about the power of God to deliver and rescue from the utmost... I share the ALIVE message of what Jesus can do today. That the book of ACTS has not ended but the Lord is looking for willing PEOPLE to take up their cross and follow HIM..

Greater things... more than a scripture, it is a reality to those who seek HIM. MAN or WOMAN.

Blessings,

Pastor Karen

Home Missionary

[Vickilynn]

As a creditialed minister with the Assembly of God (& a WOMAN) and under authority of the denomination, I find this topic very tedious and unfruitful.

Shalom,

The Scriptures are the authority and will of G-d, not denominations that violate them. It is an important issue in the Body today as many are disregarding Scripture to be PC. We should live by the Bible, not man's opinion.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

[Vickilynn]

That the book of ACTS has not ended but the Lord is looking for willing PEOPLE to take up their cross and follow HIM..

Greater things... more than a scripture, it is a reality to those who seek HIM. MAN or WOMAN.

Blessings,

Pastor Karen

Home Missionary

II Corinthians 3:3

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

The book of Acts has not ended, neither have the epistles. They are being written daily. God will finish the work He has begun. With or without us. Male or female.

Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against the flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Shalom Isaiah,

While these are wonderful Scriptures, they have no bearing on the topic at hand of women speaking, teaching, preaching etc.

Also, I must disagree with you. The Holy Bible,is not being added to or re-written. It is complete.

[Karen C.]

As a creditialed minister with the Assembly of God (& a WOMAN) and under authority of the denomination, I find this topic very tedious and unfruitful.

Shalom,

The Scriptures are the authority and will of G-d, not denominations that violate them. It is an important issue in the Body today as many are disregarding Scripture to be PC. We should live by the Bible, not man's opinion.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

PLEASE~

28

[Vickilynn]

As a creditialed minister with the Assembly of God (& a WOMAN) and under authority of the denomination, I find this topic very tedious and unfruitful.

Shalom,

The Scriptures are the authority and will of G-d, not denominations that violate them. It is an important issue in the Body today as many are disregarding Scripture to be PC. We should live by the Bible, not man's opinion.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

PLEASE~

28

[Karen C.]

As a creditialed minister with the Assembly of God (& a WOMAN) and under authority of the denomination, I find this topic very tedious and unfruitful.

Shalom,

The Scriptures are the authority and will of G-d, not denominations that violate them. It is an important issue in the Body today as many are disregarding Scripture to be PC. We should live by the Bible, not man's opinion.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

PLEASE~

28

[Vickilynn]

You are funny... Do as I say, not as I do..

Shalom,

And you are evading the issue of the topic and tossing around ad hominem attacks rather than the Scriptural position. I am not calling myself a pastor, I am not preaching, teaching or in authority over men. Like it or not, you can't argue with the truth.

And what the SCRIPTURES say is all that matters Karen. On this point, they clearly say that a woman should not be in authority over men. Dispute with Him, not me.

[Emily~Anne]

Why are so many attempting to uses verses that are NOT meant to be instructions for worship in the church to cancel out the verses that are actually meant to be instructions for worship in the church?

[Vickilynn]

Why are so many attempting to uses verses that are NOT meant to be instructions for worship in the church to cancel out the verses that are actually meant to be instructions for worship in the church?

Shalom Emily Anne,

I agree. The answer is because there ARE NO Scriptures that say that a woman can be a pastor, preacher, teacher or hold authority oven men.