Baptism for the dead?

[Eliyahuw]

Holy Moly

The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it?

Water baptism is a symbolism of a outward sign of a inward change. Its symbolic like communion is when you eat the wafer as bread and drink wine which represent the body and blood of christ. The wine and bread don't turn into blood and flesh, and baptism doesn't save or wash sins away.

We have proven by scripture that it does and you are still going to say that it doesn't.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can you say that baptism doesn't save or wash away sins when Christ says it saves and Peter says it is for the remission of sins?

Excuse me Christ NEVER said baptism saved anyone! Show me the verse where he said your saved by baptism

[Yahweh is salvation]

I've always been mytified by I Cor 15:29. Can someone explain this verse to me? Thanks

If the dead are not going to be raised to life, what will people do who are being baptized for them?

Why are they being baptized for those dead people? And why do we always risk our lives and face death every day?

( Cor 15.29-31)

I think this is what the verse says.

If we think that the dead cant be risen to life, then what is the point of getting baptized.

I hope this helps explain this verse.

God bless you.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Yahweh is salvation

[Eliyahuw]

ve? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

If people refuse to believe the scriptures of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 does that make them without effect? I can prove by scripture the things that I did, but if people refuse to believe or accept does that make it without effect? Just because people oppose what is said does not make what was said without effect. People opposed Christ and the Apostles, but what they said was truth whether people opposed it or not.

Taking only two of these verses you keep throwing up as your proof, as I dont hve the time to address everything you post.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

First of all, mark 16:16, you say to be saved you must be baptised. well, if that were the case, mark 16:16 specifically says that baptism doesn't save. Believing on christ is what saves!

Acts 2:38, your reading it for what you want it to say, not what it says.

Repent. what happens when you repent? you come to the realization that your sins are taking you to hell, and that your not righteous and that Christs blood is the only thing that can cleanse you from all unrighteousness. When you come to the realization of that, you repent or turn away and accept christ as savior, and at that point salvation is given to you. then it says to be baptized. Not for salvation but as a outward sign of inward change that christ has made in you when you recieve him. Since no one can see that change, a baptism shows the other believers and the world, that you have professed him as lord and savior.

The verse if you read it correctly says

Repent for the remission of sins, and be baptized to recieve the holy Ghost. Not that you have to have both to be saved. You have to read it as it was written in the time it was written. They wrote in synechdoches and metonymns back then to save time writing since it was all done by pen and paper. Instead of writing all the steps for salvation, Repent represents the steps. Baptism is separated because it doesn't save, it has nothing to do with salvation. It does have everything to do with recieving the holy spirit for the gifts of the spirit.

You recieve the Holy spirit the moment you are saved to begin with. The baptism is a confession of the faith you express that resulted in your salvation, and it allows the holy spirit to show himself through you when you follow the sacrement.

[Massorite]

Holy Moly

The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it?

Water baptism is a symbolism of a outward sign of a inward change. Its symbolic like communion is when you eat the wafer as bread and drink wine which represent the body and blood of christ. The wine and bread don't turn into blood and flesh, and baptism doesn't save or wash sins away.

Well then if the bread and wine are symbolic why is the water not symbolic? The communion is for the saved and it does no good for the unsaved to partake. It is apples and oranges. So please could you answer my questions? What is the water for? Or maybe you can understansd this better. What is the symbolism of a water baptism? & Why did Christ command it?

[Eliyahuw]

Taking only two of these verses you keep throwing up as your proof, as I dont hve the time to address everything you post.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

First of all, mark 16:16, you say to be saved you must be baptised. well, if that were the case, mark 16:16 specifically says that baptism doesn't save. Believing on christ is what saves!

No, you are missing the point. It takes both belief and baptism. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Is is like saying that it takes dirt and water to make mud. You cannot leave one of them out to get mud. Anyway, if we don't believe then we won't get baptized.

No i haven't missed the point. you say it takes both. and now your assuming thats what was being said when you say if we don't believe we wont' get baptized. Show me where the bible says that!

IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS if you don't believe your not saved! Show me where it says we won't get baptised if we don't belive cause i can take you into ANY CHURCH IN AMERICA and find several people who have been baptised and aren't saved. When you ask them about their salvation they all say, i was baptised. Go into a catholic church, they say i was baptised as a infant.

Acts 2:38, your reading it for what you want it to say, not what it says.

Repent. what happens when you repent? you come to the realization that your sins are taking you to hell, and that your not righteous and that Christs blood is the only thing that can cleanse you from all unrighteousness. When you come to the realization of that, you repent or turn away and accept christ as savior, and at that point salvation is given to you. then it says to be baptized. Not for salvation but as a outward sign of inward change that christ has made in you when you recieve him. Since no one can see that change, a baptism shows the other believers and the world, that you have professed him as lord and savior.

The verse if you read it correctly says

Repent for the remission of sins, and be baptized to recieve the holy Ghost. Not that you have to have both to be saved. You have to read it as it was written in the time it was written. They wrote in synechdoches and metonymns back then to save time writing since it was all done by pen and paper. Instead of writing all the steps for salvation, Repent represents the steps. Baptism is separated because it doesn't save, it has nothing to do with salvation. It does have everything to do with recieving the holy spirit for the gifts of the spirit.

You recieve the Holy spirit the moment you are saved to begin with. The baptism is a confession of the faith you express that resulted in your salvation, and it allows the holy spirit to show himself through you when you follow the sacrement.

Hey look don't go quoting another passage and ignore my response. I don't ahve the time to screw around with you inundating me with passages to avoid answering me. Go back to acts and my post about it and show me how and through etymology that i am wrong! Show me that they didn't use schynechdoches and metonymns in this verse.

I have done the research why don't you do the research and go back and see how they wrote scripture and why they wrote it the way they did.

We know that the blood of Christ is what cleanses us from our sins, but the scriptures are trying to tell us that the blood of Christ is in the waters of baptism. Just as the fruit of the vine symbolizes Christ blood and the bread his body, the waters of baptism symbolizes his blood that he cleanses us with. That is why Paul is trying to demonstrate here what happens in baptism.

Symbolically yes, literally no. JUST LIKE the wine and the bread used in communion, does not actually turn into flesh and blood, Baptism does not cleanse us from sin. And NOWHERE In that passage does it say baptism saves us.

nowhere!

[Eliyahuw]

Holy Moly

The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it?

Water baptism is a symbolism of a outward sign of a inward change. Its symbolic like communion is when you eat the wafer as bread and drink wine which represent the body and blood of christ. The wine and bread don't turn into blood and flesh, and baptism doesn't save or wash sins away.

Well then if the bread and wine are symbolic why is the water not symbolic? The communion is for the saved and it does no good for the unsaved to partake. It is apples and oranges. So please could you answer my questions? What is the water for? Or maybe you can understansd this better. What is the symbolism of a water baptism? & Why did Christ command it?

I said baptism is symbolic. Its a outward sign of a inward change. nothing more nothing less.

Baptism is only for the saved. You can't be baptised and be unsaved. it does no good. it only gets you wet.

So its not apples and oranges. Baptism and communion are the only two sacrements that christ said to do. Baptism is a showing of your salvation. The water is symbolic for Christs death burial and resurection. It is not required for salvation!

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K. y'all

I started this topic and let me just say that the first couple of answers really bore witness with me. But I gueas we'll find out when He returns.

But my, my, my, haven't we gotten on an interesting discussion about water baptism.

Concerning the Acts 2:38 baptism reference for the remission of sins, check out Col 2:11-12 as an explaination of how water baptism is related to sins. This "body of the sins of the flesh" I believe is the "old man" referenced in Rom 6:3-6. This is all a fuller or deeper salvation and this is what Acts 2:38 is refering to.

The Mark 16:16 reference only makes sense when you consider that water baptism provides for something more that receiving Christ as you saviour. Note the end of the verse says that you are condemned for just not believing, meaning that "saved" in this verse is more that just believing. Remember the thief on the cross was never water baptized yet saved.

Are we all scratching our heads yet? Here's the simplicity of Christ: You must be born again to enter the Kingdom. The Kingdom is more that just being saved from hell (being condemned). Being born again is two fold; born of the water and the Spirit, baptism in water and the H.S.. Titus 3:5 describes the process of being born of the Spirit. That which is born of Spirit is spirit, the new spirit we see in Ez 36:26. That which is born of the water is a new creation where the heart has been circumcised (Col 2:11 and Ez 36:26). The old man is buried and we rise to walk in the newness of life (Rom 6:4) Its about the Gospel of the Kingdom. It's more than just being saved from hell, as wonderfull is that is. God has so much more for those who will press into it.

I know I've probably stirred up more questions and debate, but these are the deep thing of God and we need to get them revealed.

[Eliyahuw]

Ask this question then -

How many people here believe that a Christian can go to heaven without being baptized?

I DO! Its even proven by scripture.

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now would you care to explain your theory again? The thief on the cross is in heaven and NO BAPTISM WAS REQUIRED for salvation!

None of the scriptures give me discomfort. I believe in ALL of them and believe that they are all meant to be used and applied. I have never used one scripture to disannul another. I have always affirmed that they must be put together for proper understanding. In an earlier post the poster was doing just that. Because the word baptism was not used in certain verses talked about salvation then it was not part of the salvation process. My rebuttal was that you have to put the verses together.

1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

WHat your proposing is confusion! the plan of salvation is not some giant puzzle you have to put together out of excerpts from the bible.

Also how do you explain this?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Notice NO BAPTISM IS REQUIRED. All that is required for salvation is confess with your mouth the lord jesus, and belive in you heart, that he is risen. NO other requirements period! Baptism isn't even mentioned, nor implied! IT SPECIFICALLY says confess and believe. IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION! Not baptism.

To get proper understanding you have to use ALL of the scriptures and not just the ones that back up or justify your belief.

YOur trying to back up your belief with scriptures that seem to support it, but your really taking scripture way out of the context of what it was given.

There are many scriptures that mention what saves us. We are saved by faith, grace, works, baptism, repentance, hope.

It takes all of these and not just one alone.

Sorry faith doesn't save us! were saved by Grace, through faith. Faith doesn't save anything. Works doesn't save anything, you cannot work for a gift of God. Baptism isn't even in the picture here. Repentence comes at the moment of salvation, and hope comes after salvation.

Again, this is spitting in the face of christ! your saying his death was not enough! Your saying the shedding of his blood was for naught!

Again, show me a verse where JESUS himself said that your saved by works, or by baptism.

In fact eph 2:8,9 specifically negates your assertation that were saved by works. it specifically states that there is NOTHING we can do, NOTHING! not works, not baptism to be saved.

God isn't selling his gift! ITS a Gift! something that is free! no works required

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Eliyahuw]

Greg, you said a lot of great things, but I have heard this before about the thief and a lot of people use it to dispute baptism. Let's go back to the scriptures and see what they say about this.

First, the New Testament did not come into effect until after the death of Christ -

so who died first, christ or the theif. scripture please!

Baptism is a doctrine of the New Testament and only required and taught in the New Testament. That did not take eftect until after Christ's death. Until then the Jews were under the Old Testament and Old Law.

Wrong! Baptism is a doctrine of the OLD testament too! John the baptist baptised christ under the jewish law. Christs baptism was not the same as ours.

Remember our baptism is by fire, not of water as john the baptist prophecied.

Now, Christ had the power to forgive the thief's sin while he was still on this earth and it was done before the doctrine of baptism was a law.

So he did something totally different for the theif than the rest of us!??

really now! that means theres two different salvations!?? wait a min, no 3 salvations if you count works, no wait 4 salvations if yu count baptism, hrmm do we stop counting now???

[EricH]

Holy Moly

The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it?

Water baptism is a symbolism of a outward sign of a inward change. Its symbolic like communion is when you eat the wafer as bread and drink wine which represent the body and blood of christ. The wine and bread don't turn into blood and flesh, and baptism doesn't save or wash sins away.

We have proven by scripture that it does and you are still going to say that it doesn't.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can you say that baptism doesn't save or wash away sins when Christ says it saves and Peter says it is for the remission of sins?

If you have "proven it" people wuld not be holding the opposite position. obviously people have not been convinced by your case, so It has not been proven to everyone's satisfaction

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. In all of my time of teaching others you would not believe how many people would refuse to believe scripture even though they read it for themselves. People have actually pointed to the scripture they read out of the bible and said they did not believe it even though they considered themselves to be Christians.

Just because people refuse to believe or accept something does not make what was said wrong.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

If people refuse to believe the scriptures of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 does that make them without effect? I can prove by scripture the things that I did, but if people refuse to believe or accept does that make it without effect? Just because people oppose what is said does not make what was said without effect. People opposed Christ and the Apostles, but what they said was truth whether people opposed it or not.

But you are not Christ. Nor are you one of His apostles (nor am I). You are a regular guy like the rest of us presenting your view of what the scriptures teach. The danger of proof texting (like you are doing here) is that it does not address all the passages that speak to a subject. For a theology to be biblical, it must take into account all of the passages that speak to that subject, and then integrate them in a way that is faithful to the text.

Clearly your case is not open and shut. This is a matter of theology that has been debated ad nuaseum. It is not that people are disbelieving the passages you cite. They are integrating them with the other passages that teach on salvation in a manner different than you are. For the discussion to be truly meaningful, people on both sides need to address all of the passages in a menaingful way (even those that give them discomfort).

No disrespect Eric, but in actuality if you read the posts that I have posted you will see that what I believe incorporates all the scriptures that speak on salvation. What is is that a lot of doctrines either will leave baptism all together out of salvation teaching that it is up to the believer to be baptized or not, or teach we need to be baptized, but it is only a sign. Romans the 6th chapter says that it is more than just a sign.

When it comes to subjects like this people use some scriptures to contradict or counterman others. I.e. Just because John 3:16 doesn't mention baptism then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. I only want to point out that there are very necessary verses that give more validation to the properties of baptism than are being given and/or believed.

Ask this question then -

How many people here believe that a Christian can go to heaven without being baptized?

Then look at the fact that Christ commanded it and the Apostles implemented it in the spreading of the gospel.

None of the scriptures give me discomfort. I believe in ALL of them and believe that they are all meant to be used and applied. I have never used one scripture to disannul another. I have always affirmed that they must be put together for proper understanding. In an earlier post the poster was doing just that. Because the word baptism was not used in certain verses talked about salvation then it was not part of the salvation process. My rebuttal was that you have to put the verses together.

To get proper understanding you have to use ALL of the scriptures and not just the ones that back up or justify your belief.

There are many scriptures that mention what saves us. We are saved by faith, grace, works, baptism, repentance, hope. It takes all of these and not just one alone. They all have their proper places in Christianity to the saving of our souls. Once you start using some to discredit others you will have division in doctrine.

And others who are equally convinced disagree with you, and the logic you have used to put them together.