Baptism for the dead?

[Thaddaeus]

FresnoJoe,

Whoever Has Jesus Has The Truth

Ah, but all those examples I gave all believe in Jesus. I can even mention some others as well. But to which Jesus would you be refering?

John 14:6

Got Tradition Upon Your Back

Again, I gave you at least 5 traditions. There are several hundred, so which tradition and which Jesus are you speaking about?

Colossians 2:8

Get Jesus

How do you know which Jesus to pick from all the many and varied selections. How do you know which one is Truth? Quoting scripture does absolutely nothing as all the above can do the same.

Romans 10:9-10

Some Will Say This And Other's Will Say That

Hoping You'll Forget God's Holy Chat

The Rock And The Flood, Be Saved Or Be Sunk

Again, you have given not indication of which one you speak. All the above can quote this verse and make it their foundation of belief. How do you know which is correct?

So Be Sharp And Pray, Be Smart

Read God's Word To Know His Heart

One Narrow Road To Heaven's Sweet Gate

Nice verses, but the Jehovah Witnesses can quote the same thing and mean the same thing. As can all the others I listed. So, once again, how do you know which tradition which Jesus is the real one?

If I had actually asked this question for a purpose, rather than a rhetorical one, you have not even begun to give me an answer. Anyone can read scripture, anyone can expound on it as is quite evident all over the net and on every board and thread. But where is the Truth? How can you put forth your interpretation and have it stand as Truth over against anyone else doing the very same thing? That you have not answered.

[Guest]

Thank You Dear Seeker.

I Corrected The Post To Include Only The Word Of God.

Does It Help?

all claiming truth based on scripture, who has the Truth?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Colossians 2:8

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matthew 7:24-27

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:13-14

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." Numbers 6:24-27

If I had actually asked this question for a purpose, rather than a rhetorical one, you have not even begun to give me an answer. Anyone can read scripture, anyone can expound on it as is quite evident all over the net and on every board and thread. But where is the Truth? How can you put forth your interpretation and have it stand as Truth over against anyone else doing the very same thing? That you have not answered.

Amen!

No Man And Especially Not This Old Joe Can Show You Anything.

Only God Can Show You The Truth.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:1-6

The Bible Never Goes Out Without Accomplishing God's Propose

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:11

You May Not Know It But This Verse And Your Consistence Rejection Of The Holy Bible Tells Me You Are In Desperate Danger.

You Are Asking Questions Of This Ministry And Others.

You Are Given God's Holy Words.

Words Of Life You Do Not See.

Words You Blindly Reject.

But For God,

Hopeless.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

Know The One Thing You Do Not Demand Of Believers You Nevertheless Have.

You Dear One Are In Our Prayers.

See Jesus And Be Blessed

Love, Joe

[Eliyahuw]

Bottom line is, if Christs sacrifice, his blood is not enough, then what that tells me is that he isn't powerful enough to save anything.

As long as your understanding is short sighted then that is all you will see it as. I have drawn out how we are to reach the blood. I 150% agree with you that the blood of Christ is that power, but what you are disagreeing with is how we obtain the blood. Christ gave us a way and I have shown through scripture, but you will not accept it.

Look, Christ gave us a way and it is simple enough that even a child can understand it! Not with all these catches and rules and proceedures.

All that it takes to reach the blood is NOTHING BUT

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If that is true then just throw away the rest of the bible because it has no bearing on salvation anyway.

OK Card, what part of Romans 10:9 is not true!??

[Thaddaeus]

FresnoJoe,

No Man And Especially Not This Old Joe Can Show You Anything.

Only God Can Show You The Truth.

I agree with this statement. But the statement itself does not answer the question of who is correct. It may be conviction, but I can assure you that everyone on this board, this thread, including you will say that you have that same conviction.

If you are not sure of what is Truth, how can you teach and preach the Gospel? There is only ONE faith that was given by Christ and the Holy Spirit. Not all of the hundreds that are available today.

This is what I a driving at with this rhetorical question.

If you believe that your interpretation is the absolute Truth, then you ought to be proclaiming it as such. However, what I read and hear is that when there are clear differences, it matters not that there are differences in the first place. Thus it always comes down to the lowest common denominator, just the name Jesus. This is what you started out with. I say, so what. All the different faiths proclaim the same name, but is it the same Jesus.

The Bible Never Goes Out Without Accomplishing God's Propose

This is not addressing the question either. I agree with the statment, but it is from God's perspective and not man's. Who is accomplishing God's purpose, who is accomplishing the proclamation of HIS Gospel and not man's gospel?

You May Not Know It But This Verse And Your Consistence Rejection Of The Holy Bible Tells Me You Are In Desperate Danger.

You Are Asking Questions Of This Ministry And Others.

You Are Given God's Holy Words.

Words Of Life You Do Not See.

Words You Blindly Reject.

But For God,

The question has nothing to do with me. It has all to do with what goes for gospel Truth on these and all boards for that matter. If one hundred people give their interpretation of a given concept, (lets say baptism)(or salvation itself) of Scripture and we have at least 10 clearly defined differences, how do you resolve them? Which of those 10 has the Truth, if one assumes one even has the Truth? That is the original intent of my rhetorical question. A question you attempted but have not yet answered.

Maybe, If I made it personal, if you believe that your interpretation is the Truth on the matter, how can you show that it is so? How can you show that it outweighs the other 9 interpretations? What makes your interpretation the Truth and all others false?

[Eliyahuw]

OK Card, what part of Romans 10:9 is not true!??

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

There is nothing that is untrue about this scripture. Its just that you cannot just stop right there when there are so many other scriptures in the bible. Look at this -

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Do you see in Acts where the two were put together? Sometimes you will see verses that talk about the same things, but express it in different manners. You just can't take one or two verses to build Christianity on or we would have not been given the whole New Testament.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Since ALL scripture was given to us for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness then all the verses that support baptism, faith, grace, works, etc are given to us for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.

If they are both instructing us on how to be righteous before God then it would stand to reason that we uphold and follow each one of them with equal attention and application.

Well heres where your screwing up. we can't b righteous and we don't have to work to be righteous! Christ already covered that! His blood sanctified us and made us righteous already! So working towards righteousness is no longer necessary. prior to christs death burial and resurection, man came to righteousness through the sacrifices he made under the law. Since christ wsa the final sacrifice, then righteousness is imputed to us once we call upon his name and are saved.

Just because there is a scripture that says that doesn't mean that all of Christianity is based upon that. That is why this scripture -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is actually letting us know that not everybody that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, but he that does the will of God will be saved. Do you know what the will of God is?

The will of God is that none should perish in the flames of hell.

But your contradicting Romans 10:13 with Acts 22:16.

Mat 7:21 doesn't say salvation is base on baptism. it says that not everyone will accept christ.

[Guest Greg Davies]

]

This is actually letting us know that not everybody that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, but he that does the will of God will be saved. Do you know what the will of God is?

Yo Card,

You are equating the Kingdom with salvation. You and the rest the guys who believe you can lose your salvation (Yea, I noticed y'all jumped on this topic), keep making the error that "salvation" is one big thing that includes the whole Kingdom message.

You are frustrating the grace of God. In a previous post, you equated the gift of the H.S. with being born of the Spirit. When we are born of something, we come out of it, as in being born of a woman. This is what baptism is: we are dipped into, immersed into and we come out of it. Being born of the Spirit is the baptism of the H.S. and this is when we are initially saved. I Cor. 12:13 says by one spirit are we all baptized into one body. That which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).

Now I believe that this new spirit (Ez 36:26 and Titus 3:5) cannot be lost. You can disagree, but that is not where I'm headed here. Jesus sayed in John 3 that to be able to enter the Kingdom you must also be born of the water. Water baptism is an additional operation where a number of things are accomplished. We cut covenant with God (circumcision of the heart, Col 2:11-13), the "old man" is buried (Rom 6:3-6) and we are able to walk in the newness of life, and we are baptized into the Name. We take on the family name of God with all the rights and privileges of being sons of God. Now we can enter the Kingdom and someday rule and reign with Christ on the earth.

The gift of the H.S. is something else again. Going back to I Cor 12:13 we find that we also are made to "drink of one Spirit". This is the infilling of the H.S. and we know it is an additional work by the accounts in Acts showing believers receiveing the gift of the H.S. after being saved (8:15-17; 9:17; 19:2-6). After all, how can you be filled with a baptism? Think about it. It's like the difference between washing your car and filling it with gas. One is for cleansing and purifying and the other is for power.

God is so merciful and gracious. He hasn't set up a system of qualifications and a check list to see of we are worthy of salvation or if we can keep it. If we call on His name with the implied repentance and confession, we are saved.

Is there a deeper relationship and a fuller salvation available through water baptism? Yes!

Is there more power for ministry and a deeper communication available with the Lord through the gift of the H.S.? No Doubt!

Maybe when you get to heaven, you can ask my father, who was saved on his death bed and never had the opportunity to be water baptized how he got there. Sincerely, Love, Greg

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

Well heres where your screwing up. we can't b righteous and we don't have to work to be righteous! Christ already covered that!

since you refered to Christ covering that, then it is not the righteousness we are speaking of. Man has nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross. Christ reconciled, redeemped, justified, made mankind righteous. put man in a correct relationship with God.

We could not do this Work, man has never been required, never could do this work. This is why Christ was promised already in Gen 3:15. Why would man think that he could save himself?

On the other hand, when we are justified by faith, we enter into a relationship with Christ. It requires love above all, but that leads to obedience because we love Him. We desire to do what He has commanded of us. As much as we do, as much as we are able and willing to work with Him in that relationship, the more we become righteous. That righteousness is of Christ, but it is ours. Man can become righteous. Repentance makes man righteous before God, because God has forgiven those sins he just confressed ONLY because Christ propitiated those sins with His Blood on the Cross.

His blood sanctified us and made us righteous already!

[Thaddaeus]

Greg Davies,

You are equating the Kingdom with salvation. You and the rest the guys who believe you can lose your salvation (Yea, I noticed y'all jumped on this topic), keep making the error that "salvation" is one big thing that includes the whole Kingdom message

I cannot actually speak for the others,.but for me, that is BINGO.

You just hit the message of the Gospel of Christ. Christ, as per God's promise ot Adam, would rescue man from the bondage to death by which Adam enslaved mankind. Once freed from that bondage man is now able to enter freely again and enjoy the union, the purpose of why God created man in the first place, with God.

It is all about the journey. What you are calling salvation, is but the entrance into the Kingdom. It is how we enter, faith, repentance, then baptism. We then receive the Holy Spirit as well. We need His assistance, we need all the nouishment, help, aid, we can get to resist the wiles of the devil. He is seeking to gain your soul as well. He was able to seduce Eve and Adam, and he has been successful with a lot of believers as well. Many have fallen by the wayside, got crushed by the worries of this world, desired more the pleasures of this world, than the union now and in eternity with Christ.

Now we can enter the Kingdom and someday rule and reign with Christ on the earth.

not someday, but today. The Saints rule with Christ. You pray this everytime you say the Lords prayer. "thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven. What did you think this meant?

God is so merciful and gracious. He hasn't set up a system of qualifications and a check list to see of we are worthy of salvation or if we can keep it. If we call on His name with the implied repentance and confession, we are saved.

that is precisely what it is. We are saved THROUGH FAITH. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are meaningless. We are to endure that faith to the end. We live a life IN Christ. It takes work, effort, resistance, patience, stamina, courage, developing all the virtues of the 10 commandments of the NT. (Beatitudes).

Where does it say we are saved without repentance, without confession, without baptism, without sharing the Eucharist, without love, without obedience. No place will you find that we are saved by faith. We are justified by faith, we enter into the Kingdom, enduring is being saved THROUGH THAT FAITH. It is active, not passive. There is no intent, implication, nor direct statement that faith is passive.

[Eliyahuw]

It is given to you as you become righteous. It is not just given to you willy nilly, nor just because you made an affirmation of faith. Love, obedience MUST follow or your faith is dead. Faith without love, without works is dead, meaningless. You don't have it unless you remain faithful, unless you grow in that relationship, become more righteous as you go from glory to glory. We are all different in the extent of our being righteous.

???? what? sorry but Righteousness is impossible for man to obtain! christ fulfilled all righteousness on the cross.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Mercy is Gods Grace!

RIghteousness

is the concrete expression of "righteousness:" see JUSTIFICATION, A, No. 2. Note: In Hbr 1:8, AV, euthutes, "straightness, uprightness" (akin to euthus "straight, right"), is translated "righteousness" (RV, "uprightness;" AV, marg., "rightness, or straightness").

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Righteousness is imputed because christ was delivered for our offences, our sins. when he wsa crucified, we were justified and fulfilled the requirements of the law. then were made righteous.

The only way for the OT belivers to be righteous was through a blood sacrifice. Since christs blood was shed, that alone made all man justified and righteous.

Now the next step is mans, he must go and take the gift that God laid before him!

When we fail to follow through with obedience, love, baptism, an outright transgression of a command for all believers. There is not statement in the Bible that any single thing saves a man.

uhhmm yes there is! Lots of statements in the bible that say believe on christ and you will be saved!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Revelation 3:20a "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."

Water baptism is one of the ways you first show that

you have been joined to Jesus. This is an action, and actions will not save you. However, it is an act of obedience and a symbol of commitment.

The symbolism is this:

When you go down in the water you show that

You have been crucified and buried with Him,

And when you come up out of the water you show that

you have been raised to walk with Him in newness of life.

Romans chapter 6

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It is the composite of his life. It is living IN Christ that saves a man.

NO it isn't that is a work. works do not save. Living in Christ shows that a person has been truely saved because once their saved they will change and become a new creature. You cannot be an old creature and work your way to heaven. ITs impossible.

A choice that you will be held accountable for at the judgement seat of Christ.

yes and thank God that won't condemn us to hell. All the judgement seat of christ is, is a accounting of what you have done through christ. Some of us will be kings with him and some will be streetsweepers! but none of them will be in hell.

[Eliyahuw]

No place will you find that we are saved by faith.

Amen, were saved through faith, not by faith.

We are justified by faith,

Uhmm no were justified by Christs sacrifice. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. i don't see justification there.

we enter into the Kingdom, enduring is being saved THROUGH THAT FAITH. It is active, not passive. There is no intent, implication, nor direct statement that faith is passive.

Uhmmm hmm i dont' think its passive, we have to get faith through hearing the word of God. so we must listen and believe thats what hearing means.

WEre saved only by Grace. Grace is Gods giving us unmerited favor.

Ro 11:5,6, where as a definition is given, showing that salvation is not of works, that no man can work his way into heaven and no man can work for salvation.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.