Magic in the modern Christian world

[patricia1]

I was such a huge Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan...it never made me desire to start doing witchcraft....

....or slaying vampires for that matter.

Really Drusilla???

scarlet you are really funny..

There is illusional magic,( natural magic ) and divining magic, I believe the divining magic is what the Lord Jesus would most personally not want us to practice. But if you look at natural magic which is deception to make one believe something is, that is not, such as pulling a rabbit out of a hat for entertianing reasons, and one considers that evil, that is the opinion of that person.

Divining magic---paranormal such as influencing of events..objects people or physical phenomenon by mystical or supernatural means.

It can be traced to 500 b.c. I do not worry much about what comes out in the movies as much as how my child is being taught witchcraft in schoools cartoons and such. There is a difference between fantasy and reality. My daughter knows Jesus is all powerful and has no need to try to copy what she sees. I can at least not go to the movies. She was afaid of Aliens until I told her they were demons , then she said "oh, jesus takes care of them" She heard about them from her nieces.

This is where wisdom and knowledge is important! Talking to the dead is practiced all over the world...God calls rebellion as a witchcraft sin. How many christians are in rebellion? Against authorities Jesus puts over us..against the calling Jesus puts before us..children against mothers and fathers and so on. Even against the scriptures.

I also believe that when one talks bad about another you put a curse on that person and it affects you as well.

Really without hearing the sermon, although I do not question your post... one needs to know where your pastor is coming from...

There is nothing wrong with asking what you have written to him...I would have asked for clarification. We live in this world but do not partake of it but we also cannot run from it. Yes certain things we should be well versed in...called the scripture..I have never ever come across a practice I know not of that the person is not willing to explain... But whatever it may be Jesus is the answer to everything. Wiccan is a cover for satanism, a lot of wiccans do not even know that cos they do not get that far. There is a warning I give to all who seek information not by christian means. Don't go there!!!!

[Resting in Christ]

Howdy all, I just thought I'd share an email with you that I wrote a few months back. At the time of writing this email, I had just finished listening to a sermon in church about "Magic". While our church is generally a fairly conservative non-invasive group, the new pastor has a more hardline stance to things such as magic (ie, Harry Potter is evil). Don't get me wrong - I've found this guy to be one of the most intellectually gifted men I have ever known. His insights have been astonishing and I think his knowledge of the Bible is unparalleled. Unfortunately, I think he also has a very limited mind when it comes to other beliefs, and that belief shines through with some of his sermons and comments. I guess this email springs from the question "where do we draw the line on magic"? Harry Potter is evil. Is the Wizard of Oz evil? Or Disney's Aladdin? Or Mary Poppins? The following post I am about to share with you is an email I sent to my pastor as a result of a sermon on magic. I guess I did sort of ramble a little bit from time-to-time, and went off-topic, but I thought finally that I should share this email with you guys. I was hoping to hear your thoughts about it, about the contents of the email, and your beliefs about the issue itself. How would you react if you knew a person who practiced magic? Would you be their friend? Would you attend one of their meetings? And if not, would you expect them to offer the same courtesy when/if you ask them? But I digress - here is the email:

All the best, I hope you have a chance to read through it (I know it's long - for which I apologise in advance).

~ Regards, PA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey ******* ******* (Pastor's name removed for anonymity). How's things going this week. Good, I hope.

I apologise in advance for the length of this email, I had much i needed to say. Thanks for the sermon tonight, it was most..... interesting. I hope I don't offend, but I must disagree with your view on magic in film/book/game/etc. This is for two reasons. The nature of magic, and the nature of television (and books/music/movies/games). I believe your sermon was based on a couple of assumptions that are neither static nor realistic.

Firstly, The nature of magic.

In your sermon, you discussed the various types of magic. Not in too much detail though - do you truly think it wrong to even study what magic is? We are told to keep away from it, but is that from practicing it, or educating ourselves about it? There is nothing wrong (I believe) about being educated as to what anything is. It helps us with our understanding of other world-views, and thus helps with evangelism since we know what other people may believe. It helps remove misconceptions and preconceptions about what magic actually is (I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two members who after your sermon thought that magic was a group of people chanting in a circle as they sacrifice a virgin to pagan gods, or even Satan). It helps us personally in identifying magic (for it can take many forms, not always obvious), and thus helps us keep to God's way and not led astray. In no way do I believe there is a command to steer clear of magic altogether - the "keep away" aspect, I think is from actively practicing it. Having only reached Christianity when i was 19/20 years old, and studying many other religions and beliefs before and since then and knowing quite a few friends that would consider themselves "witches" or "druids". I have found knowing these beliefs vitally important in understanding relationships with people of said beliefs.

I wonder how some of our church members would react when evangelizing or meeting someone on the street and they say "I'm a practicing Wiccan", or "I'm a druid". Would they know the difference between Wicca and Druidism? Would they be able to speak to them and relate to them on a personal level. Or would they think "witch = evil. Run!"

This brings up an interesting question of Ritual. As a Christian, when speaking with non-Christian friends who belong to a faith other than Christianity, we invite them to church or to Bible Study. Assuming they invite us to their place of worship, are we to decline? I would not. I would use it as a chance to see their worship, how it differs to ours, how it is similar. From there, a platform is laid to understand their beliefs, and through understanding show them how Christianity is the path to God.

So a Catholic friend invites me to mass. I agree. A Muslim friend invites me to a Mosque. I agree. A Jewish friend invites me to Synagogue. I agree. A Buddhist friend invites me to Temple. I agree. A pagan invites me to their Coven ritual....... do I agree, do I shun them. Do I tell them no, but then expect them to return the courtesy in attending our Faith. If I know nothing of druidic beliefs, do I (as I'm sure some would do) run away screaming that they're invoking the devil, thus alienating them for good (another nail in the coffin of our collective Faith)? Or in an extreme case, a member of our congregation who knows little of pagan beliefs, do they go to the police (all good intentioned) and inform them of "Satan worship" and that people's lives are in danger as they are about to sacrifice a virgin to their Dark Lord. Or do the un-educated Christians do something themselves and organize a prayer exorcism and physically tie them down and pray over them for the spirit of Satan to leave them (something that happened to at least two pagans I personally know who grew up in regional centres - I'm glad I've been able to show them that not all Christians are like that, but their views are certainly skewed by those experiences. To them, I'm an exception, not the rule).

But I digress.

You mentioned stage magic, and "real" magic (which is actually broken further down into "Ceremonial magic" and "God (not the Judaic God - though by definition it fits into the same category as other god-assisted magic) inspired/assisted magic"). Anyway, as I understood it you had no issue with stage magic, which is natural. Sleight of hand, illusion and subterfuge, we know it's not real.

I'd like to add another category to magic, and that is something I'll (for lack of a better word) call "Fantasy Magic". These are the movies/books/games/RPG's etc. that create an artificial magic where people can shoot fireballs and lightning bolts and summon Beholder's and Control Orcs and things like that. This is Fantasy Magic, completely unrealistic, created for entertainment purposes only. It's just not possible to smite your enemy with a ball of flame while flying away on a trusty broomstick under the cover of a cloak of invisibility.

I believe it is a great fallacy to mix Fantasy Magic and real-life magic together. Fireballs and ogre's, magic wands and fairy godmothers, these are the realm of fairy tales ("Fairy" tales - the fairy being a mythological creature also). I see no reason to necessarily throw the generalization of all magic into all forms of Fantasy fiction.

That said, I guess there may (and I'd like to stress "may") be some wisdom in what you say if we were watching something based on real life magic. A show that attempts to give true-to-life depictions of witchcraft - movies like "the Craft" or shows like "Charmed". But even these are (at best) Hollywood'ised versions of what real life is like. Very little truth remains in them. Maybe a documentary on paganism and witchcraft, do we shun that? If it extols the virtues of the practices, maybe. Though i'd also use it as a chance to learn of these beliefs and improve my knowledge of other people.

Movies and tv, books and music. What is the nature of such as this? Why do we engage in these leisure acts? Your sermon concentrated on the entertainment value. And a large underlying reason is entertainment. But as a theatre student, I have to say that this is a most narrow corridor to take. In live theatre specifically where interaction between audience and actor can reach breaking point, theatre is not necessarily a vehicle for entertainment. Theatre practicioner Antonin Artaud, a most brilliant mind, though somewhat disturbed (he was "treated" for insanity with electro-shock therapy - the "treatment" made him worse, probably), likened the Theatre to the Plague (and created theatre accorrdingly). The Plague infects and infests. It is ugly and brutal and painful. It eats away at the insides, liquifies our internal organs. When the putrification reaches the surface, it forms sores and boils and noticeable rupture points, where the infection gathers, weeping pus and spewing forth the decaying innards.

The Plague is not enjoyable. It is not entertainment. It is raw, and dirty, and painful. But in the end, the remains (survivors) are pure. Life is transformed, and people return to life irrevocably changed, but renewed.

That is the theatre, for Artaud. A place for transformation, where an audience can go through these trials and come out the other side a new being. The theatre for entertainment was pulp for the masses, not worth a dime.

Artaud's theatre is known as "the Theatre of Cruelty" for a reason. That's not to say the actors are physically harmed. Safety is always paramount for actors. It just plays with the audience in such a way to be as uncomfortable as possible, pushes the boundaries of what we consider "normal" in society.

The theatre, where interaction between human spectator and human actor is most apparent, need not always be for entertainment. But neither is the movies, necessarily. A large part of popular entertainment is for.... well, entertainment. That's what many want from the movie/tv/book experience. But it need not be so. Shock, alarm, sadden, outrage, they are just a few adjectives I can think of that movies intend. Labeling the reason for movies and books purely as 'entertainment', and as a by-product, "fun", is so grossly generalized as to be almost blatantly false (from a theatremakers perspective, at least).

Keeping the nature of theatre in mind, we go now on to your sermon point on rape. If we recoil and won't watch rape on the films, why do we allow people to watch magic? The point pressed was that rape is wrong, therefore not entertaining. But entertainment may not be the reason for it. Movies like "The book of Revelation" attempt to shock and educate us to the fact that rape isn't always done by the man (note: I won't watch this movie, nor would I suggest anyone else do, I'm just bringing it up to say that "entertainment" is most definitely not its purpose).

How is this different to magic in film? Rape is invasive. It violates someone else. It moves beyond the comfort zone of ones self, and moves to the destroying of others for own self-satisfaction. It knocks down the boundaries of what is considered right. Magic, on the other hand, concerns the individual. Though the ramifications of magic may affect others, which could be an issue, were these things actually possible. But they're not. Magic as it is depicted in pop-culture and Hollywood is so far off the mark as to not be considered the same thing at all. Games like Diablo II (very theatrically done in your sermon, by the way, cutting it up for us all to see, great punctuating effect)

~PA's note - in this sermon, our pastor came to the realisation that playing computer games involving demons and magic was wrong, and took his copy of Diablo II, which until this point he loved playing, and took a pair of scissors to it, cutting the CD/DVD up for everyone in the congregation to see

deal with mythical creatures that have never existed being destroyed by spells that also never existed. Harry Potter has enchanted flying brooms that can't in real life fly and invisibility cloaks that just don't exist. Disney movies play on the child's imagination of "once upon a time". If we shun the "once upon a time", do we shun the "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away". Do we shun the "there's no place like home".

Moving away from magic, this opens a whole can of worms. Do we shun the Superman movies? Do we shun the Brothers Grimm and their Fairy Tales. Do we shun the Sound of Music, with its Catholic overtones (my God, Catholic - run away, for the sake of your eternal soul, run away). Why not just throw our tv's and stereo's and book collection out. Or sell them and give the money to the church, that would be best, right?

The list is endless. In the end, I agree with the major premise of your talk - it depends WHY we watch the shows/read the books/listen to the CD. But to see a fairy tale as "this is evil" is just plain ludicrous for so many reasons, not the least of which is the magic is completely unrealistic from real life spirtual mysticism.

Though one could argue that tv is a form of illusion, thus anything that happens on film could be considered the same as stage magic, all smoke and mirrors. Did this possibility enter your thoughts?

Before I end off, I'd like to discuss one more issue that came across to me. Touchy subjects of divine gifts. Precognition, for example. I have no doubt that this is possible. People who can see future events, not because they set out to try and see them or find them (which one could rightly class as "divination"), but because of a natural ability they have that just comes uncalled. You could argue the gift was given them by God, but how does one know? How is one able to discern that this special gift was provided by God. Especially when the gifted one is non-Christian. Does one ignore the gift they have, do they help people with it. If a Christian has been given the gift, does this mean it is from God, or is it a temptation they are to avoid.

(As an interesting aside here, the Wiccan who uses magic often leans on the concept of gods and goddesses to tap their abilities. From their point of view, tapping the power of the Chrisitan God is exactly what Christians do when they pray and ask for healing/guidance/requests. From the larger view beyond Chrisitanity, an outsider looking in may not necessarily see any difference in application and effect of what a Christian does when praying and what a Pagan does when doing magic).

And so I come to the end of my overly long discourse on your sermon. Thanks for taking the time to read it all (if you got this far, haha). If you could, I'd appreciate some feedback on this.

Regards, Paranoid Android

Hi PA,

What kind of response did you get? I'd imagine that it would be more of the same...

My own feeling is that much of our (Western) cultural baggage is not Christian in origin. All of our major religious holidays seemed to be tied into pagan rituals or folk superstition, like X-Mas trees, Easter Bunnies and Halloween ghouls. The Puritans of colonial New England tried to get away from the distractions of these outward forms, but that didn't last long.

Each of us must humbly ask God where He wants us to be and what He wants us to do. TV sports can be more distracting and destructive than Harry Potter those who don't care for fantasy entertainment. Of course, there is always the occasional person who would indulge in some form of witchcraft as activity; it was perhaps toward this person most particularly that the pastor's sermon was directed. It is always much better to think about truth than illusion or evil.

Kind regards, Resting

[Joshua-777]

Rather, I am suggesting that we follow Paul's advice - 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (New International Version)

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

To that, dare I add "To the Wiccan I became a Wiccan so as to win the Wiccan to Christ".

To the Wiccan I became a Wiccan does not fit in any context, of what he was saying here, That is basically saying I sin to win people to Christ, that is not what Paul did, and that is not in the context of what he was meaning.

[Joshua-777]

Thanks for the response, Josh. I agree with some of what you wrote. I also used to be into Wicca before I turned to Christ. And I agree that whatever anyone else says, it does work. But it is the work of evil spirits (the devil, if you wish) rather than the power of God. I'd like to bring attention to one thing you wrote though -

Would you be their friend? Would you attend one of their meetings?

Honestly yes I would be their friend, no I wouldn't attend one of their meetings, Some wiccans are coven based, so you would have to join their coven to attend their meetings, others don't join meetings, For me, I believe I would be in the wrong to go to one of their meetings, I do believe I can be their friend, and let my actions be a witness more than my words.

in conclusion to the email,

Yes I believe it is important to study the basics of it, not to get involved with it, as far as going to other meetings, I don't believe it is right to have fellowship in muslim/buddist/ pagan/ ect. meetings. Be their friends, be a witness to them, but don't join them.

I guess this comes to a difference of opinion, but I would go as far as to say it is unrealistic at best, and hypocritical at worst, if we would invite non-Christians to our Christian gatherings and expect them to come, but not extend the same courtesy to them if they ask.

No one's asking us to "join" them. You don't need to become a member of a coven to attend one of their rituals. Just like you don't need to be a member of a Buddhist Temple to attend one of their meetings. I see it as a simple way to build bridges between Faiths. If your Faith in Christ is strong, then there is no reason why you can't extend the courtesy of attending their Temple/Mosque/Synagogue/Coven/etc when you ask them to come to yours. They will be exposed to the word of the Lord, and if their heart has been softened by God, then they may just hear the word of God and turn and be saved.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend going to other religious gatherings if you are not absolutely certain of your beliefs. If your Faith is wishy-washy, and you don't know the Bible very well, then you can be led astray by wolves in sheep's clothing. But if your Faith is strong, and you know your Bible (not every Christian knows their Bible well - some are content to just amble through), then I see no problem.

Thanks again for your reply, Josh. All the best,

~ PA

I have known many in covens, and I have known many in freebase, where they don't join any meetings, usually the Wiccans I know are secretive about their meetings. I don't believe I need to build a bridge between faiths, and I know many who believe that all faiths lead to one, I disagree with this strongly. Jesus Christ is the only way,

[patricia1]

Everything you need to know about magic is in the Bible:

Galatians 5:20-21 (New International Version)

20 idolatry and witchcraft or sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits

of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did

before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of

God.

This is all you need to know.

Do not be a fool brother. It is better to get to know your Father than your enemy.

It is okay to question your pastor, but do not post it publicly in hopes to gain praise for your intellectual capacity. The Lord sees your heart.

well said jamie lea

[jackie d]

the question I have is why would I even want to get to know the customs or go to the meetings of those who practice magic, witchcraft or any religion that does not hold God in esteem? When God established Israel, He told them to stay away from those who worship other gods, who practice magic, call on the dead, tell the future...all of them were to be put away from them. In some cases they were to kill them. So how would things be any different today than yesterday as far as not yolking ourselves with them who in reality love the devil?