WN: Attack on Iran Said To Be Imminent - NY Sun

[nebula]

It's countries with nuclear bombs, and a track record of using them, that insist on their right to go round invading other countries and leaving them in a chaotic and violent state that concern most people in the world.

I was going to post a response, but then I saw that Eliyahuw answered what I was thinking of saying:

We have never gone in and destroyed a country without helping to rebuild it afterwards. This country has never been about that. We restored Germany and japan after our wars with them, and helped build them up. While war is Amoral, leaving these people in devestation after a war is IMMORAL! We have always been blessed by God, for not leaving them to suffer once we have broken them down.

Its not a liberal concept. When he sent Israel in to take countries in war, either they were commanded to kill everyone or they took captives and brought them back and took care of them. They were never to be left to die in hunger and suffering.

OK, yes, the US dropped two bombs in WWII - have you seen us dropping such a bomb since? That, too, is our track record.

As for what Eliyahuw responded, this is the main reason we are still in Iraq. It has never been US policy to defeat the enemy and then leave them with the mess we left behind.

[amor]

It's countries with nuclear bombs, and a track record of using them, that insist on their right to go round invading other countries and leaving them in a chaotic and violent state that concern most people in the world. As to burning Paris down, go their you'll find it's all still standing and not suffering from fire damage, which is more than can be said of much of Baghdad. Or indeed New Orleans, perhaps if the US govenment invested a little more on the maintenance of flood defences, and a little less on blowing foreigners to bits, the whole world would be a happier place

Perhaps, you need to dust of your passport and find out what the real world is like

My passport is current, amor. I've had to get a new one recently since the old one was quite well used and about to expire. I've done a lot of traveling, both military and as a civilian. I know what the world is like. It can be a darned ugly place if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've done my time on the battlefield. Have you?

A particularly ugly place if you happen to be facing the weapons of a superpower. Or indeed anyone else who, has follows an ideology thinks they have a right to bomb or shoot you.

Of course I haven't done my time on the battlefield. Because I don't believe I have the right to go around killing other human beings, and neither do I believe that any other individual or earthly power has the right to send me out to kill or be killed.

[kari21]

Of course I haven't done my time on the battlefield. Because I don't believe I have the right to go around killing other human beings, and neither do I believe that any other individual or earthly power has the right to send me out to kill or be killed.

So, you would never defend your country if called upon?

Is war always wrong, amor?

[amor]

It's countries with nuclear bombs, and a track record of using them, that insist on their right to go round invading other countries and leaving them in a chaotic and violent state that concern most people in the world.

I was going to post a response, but then I saw that Eliyahuw answered what I was thinking of saying:

We have never gone in and destroyed a country without helping to rebuild it afterwards. This country has never been about that. We restored Germany and japan after our wars with them, and helped build them up. While war is Amoral, leaving these people in devestation after a war is IMMORAL! We have always been blessed by God, for not leaving them to suffer once we have broken them down.

Its not a liberal concept. When he sent Israel in to take countries in war, either they were commanded to kill everyone or they took captives and brought them back and took care of them. They were never to be left to die in hunger and suffering.

OK, yes, the US dropped two bombs in WWII - have you seen us dropping such a bomb since? That, too, is our track record.

As for what Eliyahuw responded, this is the main reason we are still in Iraq. It has never been US policy to defeat the enemy and then leave them with the mess we left behind.

Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, those are some of the direct consequences of direct US military intervention since the Second World War. Indirect interventions include supporting the Contra terrorists in Nicuragua in the 1980's, backing Sadddam whilst he was actually gassing the Kurds and the Iranians, overthrowing the democratic Mossadeq nationalist regime (with plenty of British government support) in Iran in the 1950's. Supporting/masterminding the overthrow of a democratic government in Guatemala in 1954, primarily because that government challenged the power of US fruit plantation owners. Supporting the 1973 coup in Chile and the 1974 Indonesian invasion of East Timor. Supporting the Fascist military regimes that oppresed the peoples of the nations of Latin America in the 60's, 70's and 80's. In all cases a mess of death was the result of American intervention.

Not a particularly admirable record. With the real risk of more brutality and death to come in Iran.

[amor]

Of course I haven't done my time on the battlefield. Because I don't believe I have the right to go around killing other human beings, and neither do I believe that any other individual or earthly power has the right to send me out to kill or be killed.

So, you would never defend your country if called upon?

Is war always wrong, amor?

Of course war is always wrong. As to this country nonsense, my country is a man made political institution. Patriotism is the idolatrous worship and veneration of that institution. Defending one's country is cause often used to justify brutal attacks on people deemed to be in "other countries". I don't believe an Iraqi or Iranian life to be less valuable than an English or American one so I can't support attacks on them made "in my name"

Jesus says

39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Yet we as Christians support earthly regimes that go further than just striking the evil person. They send their bombs and guns to murder good innocent people.

[amor]

It's countries with nuclear bombs, and a track record of using them, that insist on their right to go round invading other countries and leaving them in a chaotic and violent state that concern most people in the world. As to burning Paris down, go their you'll find it's all still standing and not suffering from fire damage, which is more than can be said of much of Baghdad. Or indeed New Orleans, perhaps if the US govenment invested a little more on the maintenance of flood defences, and a little less on blowing foreigners to bits, the whole world would be a happier place.

I often wonder what your attitude would have been like had you lived during the World War 2 years...

Perhaps you would have been another Father Charles E. Coughlin...or Charles Lindbergh...

Firstly we are not in the a second world war situation, all these comparisons with that situation are used by Western and other governments to justify the barbarity of their own behaviour. Remember too that the second world war started with the Nazi regime in Germany thinking up excuses to invade other countries that were less powerful

Furthermore Coughlin and Lindberg were noted anti-semites, if you wish to go down the road of accusing me of being an anti-semite, please back it up rather than making snide comments. If you wish to find the real heirs of Coughlin and Lindberg, or indeed Goebbels you can find it in the racist rhetoric of the anti-Arab anti-Muslim mob that abounds on the internet, including on Christian sites or if you prefer your racist rhetoric in its older anti-jewish format on the equqlly nasty Islamisist hate sites. The same poisonous rubbish being spewed out, in all these cases, the same cult of the hate of ordinary innocent people.

[kari21]

Furthermore Coughlin and Lindberg were noted anti-semites, if you wish to go down the road of accusing me of being an anti-semite, please back it up rather than making snide comments. If you wish to find the real heirs of Coughlin and Lindberg, or indeed Goebbels you can find it in the racist rhetoric of the anti-Arab anti-Muslim mob that abounds on the internet, including on Christian sites or if you prefer your racist rhetoric in its older anti-jewish format on the equqlly nasty Islamisist hate sites.

Nope. Nothing to do with anything racist...I was thinking more along the lines of appeaser. If I thought you were a racist, I'd say so.

Of course war is always wrong

Funny thing about that....God sent the Israelites to war many times. Was God wrong by doing that?

Also, were we wrong to go to war against Japan after they attacked us? Should we have sought to appease Hitler after he declared war on us?

If you won't protect your country, would you protect your own family against a murderer who broke into your home?

[Guest]

A particularly ugly place if you happen to be facing the weapons of a superpower. Or indeed anyone else who, has follows an ideology thinks they have a right to bomb or shoot you.

Of course I haven't done my time on the battlefield. Because I don't believe I have the right to go around killing other human beings, and neither do I believe that any other individual or earthly power has the right to send me out to kill or be killed.

Yes, well I guess minding your own business in Jerusalem one day when the coffee shop I had left 20 minutes before got blown up by a suicide bomber. Quite a few people died - one was a friend of mine, and he had a wife and four kids. So talk to me about "if you happen to be facing the weapons of a superpower." I was a tourist as were many that day and a civilian. People trying to kill me tends to anger me greatly. At least on the battlefield you can normally tell who the enemy is -- unless its the cowardly individual who was brainwashed into thinking he/she was going to heaven by blowing up others in a coffee shop. Terrorist = coward in my opinion.

I was in the military when the invasion of Kuwait happened. We got orders to go to Saudi Arabia, so I packed my bags and went like I was supposed to. It's called obeying orders, something I wonder if you know anything about. I did not "enjoy killing others". War isn't fun, and certainly didn't enjoy it. When the air campaign started, we knew people were going to die that night and it wasn't a nice feeling.

BTW: I notice you don't have a location listed. I wonder why that is?

You don't like things the way they are? Good, amor, because I don't either. Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on many other things.

[amor]

A particularly ugly place if you happen to be facing the weapons of a superpower. Or indeed anyone else who, has follows an ideology thinks they have a right to bomb or shoot you.

Of course I haven't done my time on the battlefield. Because I don't believe I have the right to go around killing other human beings, and neither do I believe that any other individual or earthly power has the right to send me out to kill or be killed.

Yes, well I guess minding your own business in Jerusalem one day when the coffee shop I had left 20 minutes before got blown up by a suicide bomber. Quite a few people died - one was a friend of mine, and he had a wife and four kids. So talk to me about "if you happen to be facing the weapons of a superpower." I was a tourist as were many that day and a civilian. People trying to kill me tends to anger me greatly. At least on the battlefield you can normally tell who the enemy is -- unless its the cowardly individual who was brainwashed into thinking he/she was going to heaven by blowing up others in a coffee shop. Terrorist = coward in my opinion.

I was in the military when the invasion of Kuwait happened. We got orders to go to Saudi Arabia, so I packed my bags and went like I was supposed to. It's called obeying orders, something I wonder if you know anything about. I did not "enjoy killing others". War isn't fun, and certainly didn't enjoy it. When the air campaign started, we knew people were going to die that night and it wasn't a nice feeling.

BTW: I notice you don't have a location listed. I wonder why that is?

You don't like things the way they are? Good, amor, because I don't either. Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on many other things.

1. I'm against people killing other people. Do you think that an America, British, Russian or Sudanese soldier who kills civillians whilst "serving" his or her country is any more justified in his or her actions than the suicide bomber you mentioned. Barbarity is barbarity, whatever the cause that is used to justify it.

2. Obeying orders as Christians our duty is to obey our concience not earthly authorities. If someone askes us to do something wrong our obligation is not to obey. Only following orders was not an acceptable excuse in the 1940's and it is not now.

3. Why the suspicion about my location? i presumably couldn't be bothered to enter one when I registered. Since my life since then has taken me to various parts of the world it was probably a sensible idea. Anyway, to assuage your curiosity I'm happy to inform you that I am in London in London.

[amor]

Furthermore Coughlin and Lindberg were noted anti-semites, if you wish to go down the road of accusing me of being an anti-semite, please back it up rather than making snide comments. If you wish to find the real heirs of Coughlin and Lindberg, or indeed Goebbels you can find it in the racist rhetoric of the anti-Arab anti-Muslim mob that abounds on the internet, including on Christian sites or if you prefer your racist rhetoric in its older anti-jewish format on the equqlly nasty Islamisist hate sites.

Nope. Nothing to do with anything racist...I was thinking more along the lines of appeaser. If I thought you were a racist, I'd say so.

Of course war is always wrong

Funny thing about that....God sent the Israelites to war many times. Was God wrong by doing that?

Also, were we wrong to go to war against Japan after they attacked us? Should we have sought to appease Hitler after he declared war on us?

If you won't protect your country, would you protect your own family against a murderer who broke into your home?

We're not in 1941 or whenever the USA entered WW2, nor is there a murderer in my house . We're in a situation where troops from the UK and the USA have invaded Iraq, with spurious justifications, and bought death and chaos to that country, and are now,it seems intent ondoing the same in Iran