Magog and Armageddon

[nebula]

There are two tribulations. The first, of course, is that of anti-christ when he comes pretending to be the true Christ. It won't be a time of upheaval at all but rather a big love fest....one of peace and prosperity:

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

After he has woven his web of deceit and lies then the true Christ arrives and His time of "tribulation" will probably take 15 minutes.....so, I don't think we will need to worry about the things you wrote above (fossil fuels, etc.), at least that is my hope and belief.

Well, that's a different take on the matter.

I don't understand what you mean by "won't be a time of upheaval," as the Lord will be sending troubles to the Earth through the opening of the seals, the sounding of the trumpets, and the pouring of the bowls.

[whirlwind]

All 12 tribes will be one again. The question is.....where is the house of Israel today? . . . I believe it is in America

That's an interesting take, whirlwind. But what evidence do you have for the "house of Israel" being in America?

I'm sorry it has taken so long to reply to you but I wanted to be thorough with the answer so waited for a time I wouldn't be interrupted.

It sounds as if you know about the twelve tribes being split. The ten northern tribes, now called the ten lost tribes, were scattered by God. They were taken captive by the Assyrian king and never returned to their own land. They eventually traveled over the Caucasus Mountains (caucasian) and settled throughout Europe then eventually went to England. From England, well......you know the rest of the story.

The story about the battle of Hamangog really begins long ago. It started with Isaac, son of Abraham:

Genesis 25:21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

22.And the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it be so, why am I thus?" And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23.And the LORD said unto her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

The twins, Jacob and Esau, were fathers of two great nations. Esau of Russia and Jacob, later changed to Israel, father of the 12 tribes. The favorite son of Jacob/Israel was Joseph but he was sold by his jealous brothers. All part of God's great plan as he was a "type" of saviour for his people. He prospered while in service to the Pharaoh and kept many from starvation, including the family that sold him.

Before the death of Joseph's father, Jacob, they were reunited. Joseph, by that time, had two sons, Ephraim and Manassah. Before Jacob's death he blessed the two boys saying they would be great nations. To make a long story even longer.....it is thought that Ephraim is Great Britain of today and Manassah is America.

The two great superpowers of the world are America and Russia (the two nations fighting in the womb) and it continues today. Russia has been out of the spotlight for a time but seems to be cranking back up again.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

11.And thou (Russia) shalt say, 'I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates. (America)

God's superpower against the godless nation of communism. We rose to such power in so short a time. He gathered us here and blessed us with riches....the house of Israel (Canada and America)

17.Thus saith the Lord God; 'Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

18.And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that My fury shall come up in My face.

19.For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel.

I believe we live in the land of Israel, where many of the tribes have settled. We are the One Nation Under God, gathered here and blessed by God Himself. America is that great nation of "unwalled" villages.

Our brother Judah will experience the battle of Armageddon in Jerusalem while we watch God fight the battle of Hamangog against the Russians/Esau in our northern regions.....Alaska, which we bought from Esau.

I'm sorry this was so long but I just brushed on the topic. Anyway.....it's something to consider.

.........Whirlwind

[nebula]

I'm sorry it has taken so long to reply to you but I wanted to be thorough with the answer so waited for a time I wouldn't be interrupted.

Not a problem.

It sounds as if you know about the twelve tribes being split.

Yeah - basic OT history, right?

The ten northern tribes, now called the ten lost tribes, were scattered by God. They were taken captive by the Assyrian king and never returned to their own land.

Well, maybe not completely. Anna, who spoke of Jesus in the Temple, was of the Tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36-38).

But continue.

They eventually traveled over the Caucasus Mountains (caucasian) and settled throughout Europe then eventually went to England. From England, well......you know the rest of the story.

Woah - you're going to have to give some references for this one. Last I heard, the fate of the "Lost Tribes" was still a mystery, with some pockets possibly found.

To make a long story even longer.....it is thought that Ephraim is Great Britain of today and Manassah is America.

Thought by whom? Based on what?

I believe we live in the land of Israel, where many of the tribes have settled. We are the One Nation Under God, gathered here and blessed by God Himself. America is that great nation of "unwalled" villages.

Our brother Judah will experience the battle of Armageddon in Jerusalem while we watch God fight the battle of Hamangog against the Russians/Esau in our northern regions.....Alaska, which we bought from Esau.

I'm sorry this was so long but I just brushed on the topic. Anyway.....it's something to consider.

Not a problem - but this whole "America is Israel" thing . . . I would need a whole lot of evidence to support this belief before I would consider it. Sorry.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 11 2007, 07:18 PM)

For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. (Ezekiel 38:19-21)

The prophet is using hyperbole

no, you're playing games with the Word of God...just like the people who say the Flood of Noah was local

what part of "all men upon the face of the earth will SHAKE" don't you understand?

Yes, but it is hyperbole. I am not saying that the Bible does not say what it says, but I am saying that God is using a figure of speech that is quite common in the Bible particuarly as it relates to how the world reacts to power of God when it is displayed.

QUOTE

You are really reaching for that one.

you're reaching, but your argument is again readily dismissed...again, your problem is you're trying to carve out part of Armageddon and call it is a distinct war, so you can claim some type of special knowledge

No, I am just comparing the two accounts and there are simply too many dissimariites for them to be the same.

QUOTE

Magog's army is Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a relatively small (when compared to ALL nations)

based on what?

Based on the fact that In Ezekiel 38, the nations are named and are clearly NOT every nation on earth. The war of Armaggedon clearly states that ALL nations will be be involved.

QUOTE

The Valley of Jehoshaphat is not Megiddo

based on what? more random claims? Jehoshaphat literally means "the Lord judges".

I base it on geography. The Valley of Jehoshaphat is not the the valley of Meggido. They are in two different places. The valley of Jehoshaphat is part of the Kidron valley that lies between the Mount of Olives and the Temple Mount.

The Valley of Megiddo is also known as the Valley of Jezreel and is in a completely different location. Furthermore, there have already been at 30 battle fought at Megiddo and in the Jezreel in the last 4,000 years, but this is not true of the valley of Jehoshaphat, and therefore, they are not same valley, and your passage in Joel is NOT describing the same event as the war of Armageddon. Armageddon is not referenced by Joel and Joel's prophesy about the valley of Jehoshaphat is not referenced in the book of Revelation's account of the war of Armageddon.

QUOTE

It mentions nothing about the second coming

so?

QUOTE

it does not mention Megiddo

so?

QUOTE

it does not mention anyone coming from the east, it does not mention the Euphrates drying up

so what? SO WHAT??

So, the absence of those elements shows the dissimilarity between the accounts. If they were the same conflict, we would see cross referencing between the two, because the Bible ALWAYS cross references prophecy with prophetic fulfilment, and you simply don't have that to support your position.

QUOTE

You need a lot more than that

you've been proven wrong here, you'll just resort to fringe petty arguments in an attempt to save face

You haven't proven anything. All you have done is make the same assertions over and over. I am addressing the substance of the issue, and the best you can come up with is "so what?" If there was any truth to your position, you could actually make a substantive, hermeneutic case, but so far, you have not done so.

[Guest shiloh357]

All 12 tribes will be one again. The question is.....where is the house of Israel today? . . . I believe it is in America

That's an interesting take, whirlwind. But what evidence do you have for the "house of Israel" being in America?

I'm sorry it has taken so long to reply to you but I wanted to be thorough with the answer so waited for a time I wouldn't be interrupted.

It sounds as if you know about the twelve tribes being split. The ten northern tribes, now called the ten lost tribes, were scattered by God. They were taken captive by the Assyrian king and never returned to their own land. They eventually traveled over the Caucasus Mountains (caucasian) and settled throughout Europe then eventually went to England. From England, well......you know the rest of the story.

The story about the battle of Hamangog really begins long ago. It started with Isaac, son of Abraham:

Genesis 25:21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.

22.And the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it be so, why am I thus?" And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23.And the LORD said unto her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

The twins, Jacob and Esau, were fathers of two great nations. Esau of Russia and Jacob, later changed to Israel, father of the 12 tribes. The favorite son of Jacob/Israel was Joseph but he was sold by his jealous brothers. All part of God's great plan as he was a "type" of saviour for his people. He prospered while in service to the Pharaoh and kept many from starvation, including the family that sold him.

Before the death of Joseph's father, Jacob, they were reunited. Joseph, by that time, had two sons, Ephraim and Manassah. Before Jacob's death he blessed the two boys saying they would be great nations. To make a long story even longer.....it is thought that Ephraim is Great Britain of today and Manassah is America.

The two great superpowers of the world are America and Russia (the two nations fighting in the womb) and it continues today. Russia has been out of the spotlight for a time but seems to be cranking back up again.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

11.And thou (Russia) shalt say, 'I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates. (America)

God's superpower against the godless nation of communism. We rose to such power in so short a time. He gathered us here and blessed us with riches....the house of Israel (Canada and America)

17.Thus saith the Lord God; 'Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

18.And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that My fury shall come up in My face.

19.For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel.

I believe we live in the land of Israel, where many of the tribes have settled. We are the One Nation Under God, gathered here and blessed by God Himself. America is that great nation of "unwalled" villages.

Our brother Judah will experience the battle of Armageddon in Jerusalem while we watch God fight the battle of Hamangog against the Russians/Esau in our northern regions.....Alaska, which we bought from Esau.

I'm sorry this was so long but I just brushed on the topic. Anyway.....it's something to consider.

.........Whirlwind

You are teaching "British Israelism" also known as the "Identity Cult." This is false teaching completely unsupported by competent historians and biblical scholars.

[Guest]

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." 1 John 4:10-11

WONDERFUL IS HIS NAME!

The LORD Stands

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Job 19:25

So We Look Into The Power Of The Lion Of Judah And Pray

Behold, I come quickly...

Revelation 22:7

Come Quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly!

KNOW WHAT?

We Know The LORD Almighty Wins!

Glory! Glory! Glory! He's Risen!

Faithful Is Our God

Praise The LORD

Israel Lives!

Hallelujah!

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Zechariah 13:9

SING HALLELUJAH!

Sing To The KING

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Ephesians 5:19

For His Name's Sake, Pray And Work And Bless The Jew, Our Dear Brothers And Sisters To Be.

For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.

1 Samuel 12:22

By The Blood Of The Lamb Of God, Brothers And Sisters Forever And Ever Amen!

AND STAND FAST.

Stand In The Gap

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:5-6

Pray For The Restoration And Bless Israel

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

Numbers 6:22-26

Save Israel Oh LORD! Hosanna Lord, Hosanna To The King!

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:27

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Thank You Daddy For Answered Prayer

Oh How Wonderful You Are

Praise Your Holy Name

I Love You So

Even So, Come Quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly!

In Jesus

Love, Your Joe

[nebula]

OK, I decided to spend a little time looking over the earthquake issue.

Ezek. 38

19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.'

First note: It says the earthquake will be in the land of Israel.

Second note: The word for "earth" in Hebrew is 'erets, which is commonly used to refer to "the land," rather than "the planet." (Example: 'Erets Yisrael - "the land of Israel.") So, if you want to argue that "earth" = globe, you are going to have to provide the evidence that the word means such in this context.

I'll give you a link where you can see all the uses of this word, and how often it does not mean the planet. Here

[eric]

Keep going Neb,I picked up on that one as well. The *biggie*as prophecied in rev,8 will be world wide, not local in Israel. Now I will return to the side line

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 11 2007, 08:13 PM)

Yes, but it is hyperbole.

this assertion is based on absolutely nothing

you're attempting to twist the meaning of God's own word, which is incredibly foolish...

The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground

you can't twist that...a two year old could get the right meaning

this is the same type of language used to describe the Flood of Noah's day, which you likely claim is "hyperbole" as well...I'm not sure how you arbitrarily decide what God the Father is speaking is hyperbole, but you couldn't be more wrong

I am not twisting anything. You simply don't know as much about this issue as you think you do. Let me provide you with some examples of hyperbole that match EXACTLY what the prophet Ezekiel is employing.

Exhibit A: Psalm 18 was written by David to commemorate the day God delivered him from the hand of Saul. None of the natural calamites actually occurred when David was delivered by God from Saul. David is using hyperbolic (exaggerated) imagery to express the greatness of God's power. The Bible often uses the "trembling of mountains" and "shaking" of the earth to denote God's presence.

In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. (Psalms 18:6-9)

Exhibit B: To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; (Psalms 46:1-2)

Again the Psalmist is employing the hyperbolic type of imagery because if the earth were removed, there would be no one left to trust in the Lord in the first place. It is exaggerated imagery used to make the point that we will trust in the Lord as our refuge no matter what happens, even if it looks like our lives and world are falling apart, we will trust in the Lord. This Psalm contains more of this:

The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted. The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah. Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth. (Psalms 46:6-8)

When did the earth ever melt? Which "kingdoms" were moved? Again, it is just exaggerated imagery used to make a point about trusting in the Lord.

Exhibit C: I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

(Jeremiah 4:23-26)

Even though Jeremiah is using "global" language, when you examine the context, he is speaking of the desolation of Jerusalem that occurred as result of the first siege leading to the Babylonian exile. Jeremiah is using hyperbole in that he is exagerating to make a point. To a person who lived in Jerusalem/Israel, it would have seemed as if the entire world were laid to waste, and that is how the passage is written.

The reason the comparison between Noah and Ezekiel are not valid is that the account of Noah's flood is a narrative account. The author (Moses) does not use figurative language to describe what happened. There is nothing in the story of Noah to indicate that it was anything except a global flood.

The Bible utilizes almost every literary type and device known to man. God speaks to us in ways we can understand and uses our own languages, and modes of communication. He does not circumvent common literary modes, but uses them to make his point.

That is why we don't read a prophecy necessarily like a narrative event, nor do we read a narrative event like a prophecy, or parable, unless the Bible givens internal textual indicators that tell us otherwise.

There is much about Ezekiel 38 and 39 that is to understood in a literal sense. The war depicted there is a real war, but that does not mean that everything in the text is to be understood in a wooden, face value approach.

Ezekiel is simply stating what is an obvious fact, that this war will have a global impact. We use hyperbole all the time when we talk about how certain events will send "shockwaves" all over the earth, or will "turn the world upside down" and so forth. It is something that will affect the entire earth and all mankind, as it will the most massive, universally witnessed display of God's power the world has ever seen. It will have far more global impact than 9/11. It will no doubt change the world and the world will see that there is a God in Israel.

Not one reputable well-known Dispensationalist teacher/evangelist views Armageddon and the war of Magog/Gog as the same event. This is something that YOU have concocted in your mind, but it is an indefensible position. The evidence you present is scant and does is not sufficient to address ALL of the points raised in the OP. You have failed to address the bulk of the dissimilarities that have been presented.

[eric]

Very nicely and dignifiedly explained Shiloh. Not everything in the bible is to be literally, figeratively or metaphorically translated. Good examples used there my friend.