Smalcald Posted November 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 12, 2007 This is the issue; going to church on Saturday is not keeping the Sabbath as shown in scripture, not even close; there are many more specific things you must do to keep the Sabbath. The question is do you want to do them and feel that you must do them? Shalom Smalcald, No, this is not the issue. And yes, indeed going to church on Saturdays is a perfectly acceptable way to observe the Sabbath. The real issue is G-d's Word in Genesis 2. If we want to re-enter the Jewish Law's of the OT we should not do that at our convenience but really do it. This has nothing to do with observing the Sabbath. We are "really doing it" when we do as unto the L-rd. And on this point, another Believer cannot judge. However if you want to honor the Sabbath as a memory and as a way to remember and have some communion with the Jewish ceremonies that is great, much like many Christians have a Seder meal. But it is not Sabbath observance and does not meet the requirements of the commandment as set forth in Exodus. Again, not true. The Sabbath observance is between a person and G-d. The way that WE do it is certainly a Sabbath observance as unto the L-rd and you are not in a position to judge otherwise. You must understand this. To keep repeating that someone who keeps the Sabbath as unto the L-rd, but doesn't meet your understanding of the OT Law is sinning, is quite in error. The Fourth Commandment reads: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Ex 20:8-11) There needs to be understanding concerning what constitutes "work." It is "common" work, daily work and work that distracts one from fully focusing on the L-rd. Please read this, I posted it before, but it has SO much great information that rebuts the arguments: I'll post it in the next post. LOVINGFORGOD, What do you mean exactly by Sabbath keeping? This is the issue; going to church on Saturday is not keeping the Sabbath as shown in scripture, not even close; there are many more specific things you must do to keep the Sabbath. The question is do you want to do them and feel that you must do them? If we want to re-enter the Jewish Law's of the OT we should not do that at our convenience but really do it. However if you want to honor the Sabbath as a memory and as a way to remember and have some communion with the Jewish ceremonies that is great, much like many Christians have a Seder meal. But it is not Sabbath observance and does not meet the requirements of the commandment as set forth in Exodus. If you work if your family works, if you cause anyone to work on Saturday you are breaking the Sabbath and are sinning and must repent of that sin. You see the problem when we go down this road of seeking to be under the OT observances and rituals. What I mean by Sabbath keeping, is keeping it as Jesus taught it, and to me that is by Not working on the Sabbath,because I do need a rest at the end of each busy week,And if I could find a church that went on the Sabbath I would go to worship Him, but I can't, so I read alot of my Bible,I pray alot, I listen to my gospel music. By helping people as Jesus did,I might not be able to heal, like He did on the Sabbath, but I can help them if needed. I don't keep the letter of the law like the Israelites did,I light fires,Jesus doesn't want us to go hungry,or be burdened by the Sabbath.He wants it to be a joy to us. Jesus showed us the meaning of the Sabbath and That was to do good, Not that I don't try to on every other day of the week ,but every other day I'm busy working and cleaning,I don't have time, to think of Jesus all day while I'm busy doing other things.On the Sabbath I think of Jesus ,and what he did for me,and what will please him not because I have too, but because I love to do it. For the same reason I wouldn't go disobey any of the other commandments.When we do something we know is wrong we come under conviction,and repent,at least I do,it's not because I'm afraid I won't go to heaven, but because I feel awful,as we all should. There is no difference in keeping the other nine commandments,don't we obey them because we love the Lord with all our hearts,and that's what he told us to do,or is it because we think by keeping them it will help us get in to heaven? I know for a fact that I am a sinner,and no amount of commandment keeping will save me, but I keep them for the same reason every one else does ,because I love Him,and the only way I will ever make it to heaven is by the blood of Jesus,and the grace of God. So then someone or anyone on this board who is working or has to work say at a job on Saturday is no different from someone cheating on thier wife. Not a job like a nurse but let us say a job at Walmart for example. Is this observance really like the moral law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 It bears pointing out that Pilgrim7 is a Seventh Day Adventist and is teaching SDA doctrine. SDA doctrine teaches that Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation. As can be seen, Pilgrim lacks the courage and integrity to announce the Christians on Worthy Boards what His "church" actually teaches about the Sabbath. There have been other former SDA members who have consistently told the truth about the SDA's belief that Sunday observance is pagan, and that TRUE followers of Christ keep the Sabbath day. He and other SDA avoid the question about their true views on the Sabbath, as such an indictment would expose the SDA cult for what it really is as can be seen in the way they dance around plain and simple questions about whether or not Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation. They would prefer to keep that issue swept under the rug. Typical cultic behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted November 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2007 So then someone or anyone on this board who is working or has to work say at a job on Saturday is no different from someone cheating on thier wife. Shalom Smalcald, We have been over this SO many times, yet you still say the same things that are not correct. It has been explained that working on a Saturday is not a SIN. Adultery IS a sin. So, you see, you cannot say that working on a Saturday is not different than adultery, it is simply not true, and certainly not Biblical. Your understanding seems to be limited to Law or not and Sabbath does not fit into the Law box since it PRE-dated the Law and was never rescinded. Not a job like a nurse but let us say a job at Walmart for example. Is this observance really like the moral law? No, observing the Sabbath is a Biblical conviction borne of a desire for obedience and glory to G-d. It is not a sin to work on Saturday if one must. However, once someone understands how important the Sabbath is, most times they can re-arrange their schedules to get Sabbath off. For those that cannot, or those in public service such as drs, hospitals, police etc.,, they are "doing good" on the Sabbath, which is a good thing. I hope this helps. I realize that you prolly wanted the answer from someone other than me since we've discussed it before, but I'm always ready to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted November 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2007 Shalom Dennis, If this is true that you are an SDA, I appreciate you being here and so graciously discussing with us. Would you please let us know though if you ARE an SDA? For the record, I don't consider SDA's as a group to be a cult, but there are some theology and doctrine that I disagree with. Again, thank you Dennis for being so gracious when others around you have not. If you are interested, I still would like to dialog with you concerning this issue of Sabbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaqub Posted November 13, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2007 It has been explained that working on a Saturday is not a SIN. Adultery IS a sin. I like to try and understand the reasoning behind this, in view of the fact that the OT penalty for breaking the Sabbath is death. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Is not keeing the Sabbath a sin? If it is, why is it never listed as a sin? Mk. 7:21-22 - 13 sins are listed for us (Sabbath omitted) Rom. 1:29-32 - 20 sins are mentioned (Sabbath omitted) Gal, 5:19-21 - 15 sins are given (Sabbath omitted) 2 Tim. 3:1-4 - 18 sins are mentioned (Sabbath omitted) Nowhere in the New Testament is non Sabbath observance EVER mentioned as a sin. The other nine of the Ten Commandments are listed several times in the New Testament. Worshiping only the Lord God is mentioned at least 50 times Worshipping idols is commanded against at least 12 times Profane speech/taking the Lord's Name in a vain oath is commanded against 4 times Honoring your faither and mother is meintioned no less than 6 times Do not commit murder is commanded 6 times The sin of adultery is commanded against 12 times The commandment against theft is mentioned 4 times Not bearing false witness is mentioned4 times Not coveting what someone else has is mentioned 9 times Yet, no warning exists in the New Testament against not keeping the Sabbath. Jesus did not leave any commandment to the Church to keep the Sabbath in any of His teachings during His earthly ministry. Sabbath observance is purely matter of personal conscience and if someone feels that they are led of the Lord to do that, then fine. However, to claim as Pilgrim7 has stated plainly that nonSabbath observance means you don't love the Lord and that only true followers of Jesus keep the Sabbath, then we have entered into the realm of a cultic claptrap. To teach that one is sinning by only observing Sunday and not the Sabbath is a false teaching and is bordering on heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted November 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2007 It has been explained that working on a Saturday is not a SIN. Adultery IS a sin. I like to try and understand the reasoning behind this, in view of the fact that the OT penalty for breaking the Sabbath is death. Thanks. Shalom Yaqub, The Mosaic law no longer carries the punishment it once did since we are under Yeshua now. So no, breaking the Sabbath is not a sin, nor is death a penalty for any sin that is forgiven by Yeshua. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted November 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Well actually this brings up an interesting topic and one that probably needs a new thread. Exactly what and where does our behavior as believers in Christ today come from, what does Christ want us to do when He says follow my Word? I think the focus on the so called "ten commandments" is really misleading and confusing. Read Exodus there is no point that says okay here are the Ten Commandments, they are special, and these other parts of the Law are different. There is nothing that delineates this; in fact the hand of God which wrote the Law on the Tablets given to Moses wrote much more than just those ten points which really if you read them are more than ten anyway. Not that I am saying that they are not important ,but why are they important given that they are mixed with the rest of the Law when they are given in Exodus? Circumcision is older than Sabbath observance given directly to Abraham for example. What about animal sacrifice laws? Why did Christ say He was both the Lord of the Sabbath and continue with a discourse about whatever enters your digestive tract does not defile a person? For many of us this goes to the heart of this issue and I think is really interesting and important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Well actually this brings up an interesting topic and one that probably needs a new thread. Exactly what and where does our behavior as believers in Christ today come from, what does Christ want us to do when He says follow my Word? I think the focus on the so called "ten commandments" is really misleading and confusing. Read Exodus there is no point that says okay here are the Ten Commandments, they are special, and these other parts of the Law are different. There is nothing that delineates this; in fact the hand of God which wrote the Law on the Tablets given to Moses wrote much more than just those ten points which really if you read them are more than ten anyway. Not that I am saying that they are not important ,but why are they important given that they are mixed with the rest of the Law when they are given in Exodus? Circumcision is older than Sabbath observance given directly to Abraham for example. What about animal sacrifice laws? Why did Christ say He was both the Lord of the Sabbath and continue with a discourse about whatever enters your digestive tract does not defile a person? For many of us this goes to the heart of this issue and I think is really interesting and important. Wel the Torah makes no difference between the "Ten Commandments" and the rest of the Torah. I use terms like "ceremonial law" or "moral law" simply for the sake of intellectual and conversational clarity, as it makes it easier to discuss the issue, but the Bible itself treats the Torah as a single unit. The problem with cultic movements like the SDA and other performance-based righteousness groups who pretend to be "Christian" is that their over-emphasis on observance overlooks one basic biblical/spiritual truth: None of us can keep any of God's commandments. None of our observances will ever be pleasing to Him in the absolute sense because our observances are tainted with sin. While Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us, our sin nature has not yet been eradicated. Everything we do is still tainted with our sin. God's standard of obedience is beyond human capacity, and that is why we need Christ. We are not acceptable before God because we do this or avoid that. We are acceptable and pleasing to God only because it is Jesus in us fulfilling the righteousness of law in our innermost parts. That is what God sees. Our works are done out of loving gratitude and it should never be assumed that God is pleased with us because we did this or that. Keeping the Ten Commandments will not win God's favor one iota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted November 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Wel the Torah makes no difference between the "Ten Commandments" and the rest of the Torah. I use terms like "ceremonial law" or "moral law" simply for the sake of intellectual and conversational clarity, as it makes it easier to discuss the issue, but the Bible itself treats the Torah as a single unit. Yes this was what I was getting at. I also agree with the rest of your comments also with some exception (I do believe that SDA's are not a cult and are Christian, once again a different topic though). Our works are done out of loving gratitude and it should never be assumed that God is pleased with us because we did this or that. The question for us then becomes how do we show loving gratitude for this salvation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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