JohnS Posted March 13, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted March 13, 2004 I go away for just one week and all of you start misbehaving again. All of you go to your rooms and consider yourselves grounded. Peace is surely the answer and no one can say otherwise. God doesn't want us to war, he wants us to live together in His love. No doubt about it. But, sadly, most people in the world have no concept of this way of life, including us that have accepted Jesus' work on the Cross for us and call Him our Savior. Yup, I'm guilty. I'm Saved, not perfect. I'm sorry, but I just can't rest until my small part in all of this is exhausted. May God have mercy on me. Hey, all, Iv'e missed you. t. Excellent Ted! All this socialist and peacenik stuff would be great if we weren't living in a fallen world. Jesus came to save sinners! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted March 13, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2004 Christ taught his disciples to love everyone and even their enemies but I don't recall anywhere where he told them to take up arms. Nor did he condemn those who do. In fact, when a soldier came to Him , He instructed the soldier in doing his job in a Godly manner. Jesus didn't tell him to get another job because being a soldier was evil, He told him how to go about his job. Implied acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 QUOTEÂ Yet, when this is expressed in the form of Palestinian terrorism, you call it a "just cause." Your espousal of "pacifism" is tainted by an ulterior motive, and thus has no crediblity Well, by your own right to self defense definition they would have a legitimate right to defend themselves and their land. Anyway, we aren't talking about Muslims here, we are talking about followers of Christ and what He taught them. Lets not let this thread degenerate into long and wearisome diatribes about the rights and righteousness of Israel and the non rights and wickedness of the evil Muslim hoards please Shiloh. Even if you were able to discredit me, that doesn't change the message of Christ and the glaringly obvious lack of words of vengeance and warlike conduct. There is a difference between self defense and vengence. You don't want to make the distinction but it is there. There is nothing in Christ's teachings about it being wrong to defend yourself against an aggressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted March 13, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2004 And I confess you have a very good point there...but what about when God is the one bringing judgement on a nation? He uses other nations to do this. Do you think that God had anything to do with the fall of the Third Reich? Did He not use Russia and America to bring Hitler to an end? Was that not a righteous ending to an evil plot? One could regard 9-11 as an act of judgement with God using other nations to carry out using this logic. Most American Christians don't see 9-11 as a judgement, it was clearly a terrorist attack. If indeed it was a judgement, do we have the right to retaliate against God's judgement? How could I be wrong when I agree with every word of that? However, this is command for an individual. Even within the context of a battlefield, we can love our enemies.....IF...they allow it. In other words, if someone is shooting at me in a battle then he is not expressing any need for care as those verses are dealing with. However, the moment the enemy is defeated we are not to take VENGEANCE or OUR WRATH out on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Christ taught his disciples to love everyone and even their enemies but I don't recall anywhere where he told them to take up arms. Nor did he condemn those who do. In fact, when a soldier came to Him , He instructed the soldier in doing his job in a Godly manner. Jesus didn't tell him to get another job because being a soldier was evil, He told him how to go about his job. Implied acceptance. Jesus clearly taught His followers that they were to be different than the world and not to operate in the same manner. Christ said that His kingdom was not of this world so when Christians fight in worldly wars, they are not fighting at Christ's command but at the command of a worldly Ceasar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Jesus clearly taught His followers that they were to be different than the world and not to operate in the same manner. Christ said that His kingdom was not of this world so when Christians fight in worldly wars, they are not fighting at Christ's command but at the command of a worldly Ceasar. So, if your country is invaded by another country you will just sit there and allow your fellow countrymen to fight and die for you while you call them immoral. You have no problem enjoying the freedoms bought by someone elses blood. You would condemn a fellow Christian who would lay down his life so that you would have the freedoms you currently possess, but you have no compunction about telling him that he is immoral and unChristian for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 And I confess you have a very good point there...but what about when God is the one bringing judgement on a nation? He uses other nations to do this. Do you think that God had anything to do with the fall of the Third Reich? Did He not use Russia and America to bring Hitler to an end? Was that not a righteous ending to an evil plot? One could regard 9-11 as an act of judgement with God using other nations to carry out using this logic. Most American Christians don't see 9-11 as a judgement, it was clearly a terrorist attack. If indeed it was a judgement, do we have the right to retaliate against God's judgement? How could I be wrong when I agree with every word of that? However, this is command for an individual. Even within the context of a battlefield, we can love our enemies.....IF...they allow it. In other words, if someone is shooting at me in a battle then he is not expressing any need for care as those verses are dealing with. However, the moment the enemy is defeated we are not to take VENGEANCE or OUR WRATH out on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 One could regard 9-11 as an act of judgement with God using other nations to carry out using this logic. Most American Christians don't see 9-11 as a judgement, it was clearly a terrorist attack. If indeed it was a judgement, do we have the right to retaliate against God's judgement? No they are not the acts of God's judgement... sheesh!! God always warns of impending judgement to the nation about to be judged, and always gives plenty of time for repentance. He also spells out exactly what a nation is being judged for. This was a surprise attack on two or three cities a bunch low life Muslim thugs. If God were going to judge us with another nation it would be on a national scale, and not just a couple of cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Well Lady and Shiloh, you just proved OneAccord's point, when it is an enemy it is God's judgement but not if it is you. Double standard? Yes yes yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Well Lady and Shiloh, you just proved OneAccord's point, when it is an enemy it is God's judgement but not if it is you. Double standard? Yes yes yes! No doublestandard. It is entirely possible to know the difference between an act of human hatred and the judgement of God. There is a formula. God has a way of doing it, and he is consistent. He warns the people of imepending judgement, he tells the people what actions specifically is bringing about this judgement, and calls for repentance and outlines the reward they will recieve for repentance. All of that occurs for a significant period of time before He unleashes His wrath. This occurred biblically before any act of judgement occurred. That scenario did not proceeed 9/11. You have nothing to say to me about doublestandards. For you to complain about a doublestandard is nothing short of hypocrisy. It is you and OneAccord who apply doublestandards and lopsided standards to everylthing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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