JustinM Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Atheist Dan Barker, seems to believe the bible is a fable because it had speaking animals. He looked up "fable" in Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary. fable: n. 1. a fictitious narrative intended to teach some moral truth or precept, in which animals and sometimes inanimate objects are represented as speakers and actors." Well, Mr. Barker was an evangelical pastor, then converted to atheism when he was "disillusioned" by Christianity. He is also very misleading in his argument. He listed 1 definition of fable and used that 1 definition to base his argument on. Unfortunately the person he was debating didn't seem to know much about the bible. Here's a link to the discussion. I believe both side's arguments were weak. My question is, did animals carry on conversations with humans a long time ago? Some people seem to believe that to be true, but I have not found scripture to back that up. Two of the arguments Mr. Barker used to discredit the bible was calling Satan a Serpent and a Seven-Headed Dragon and then he brought up Balaam's ass. One of the problems with this "intellectual" is that he doesn't seem to understand the difference between metaphors and truth. Balaam's ass appeared to speak to Balaam, but I would argue that, God spoke through the donkey and the donkey had no idea what was going on. That's a miracle, not a metaphor. He also doesn't seem to know that you can compare a person/angel to an animal if that creature's character resembles the animal you are using to describe that being. Such as, snakes are seen as cunning, evil and deceiving, so when you call someone/something a snake, you are really saying they have character traits associated with that creature. Does anyone else have biblical passages of speaking animals, that they would like to submit? Num 22:21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. Num 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. Num 22:25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. Num 22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? Num 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [i was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 The serpent in Genesis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 The serpent in Genesis Thanks for replying, I did allude to that in my initial post, I just didn't specifically address it by book/chapter/verse. Thanks though. Anywhere else? The number 1 technique anti-christians use is to attack the credibility of the Bible. If they can disprove the bible as God's word, then that makes all the other arguments irrelevant. The Bible is the foundation of our faith. We need to be able to protect its credibility at all costs and the best way to do that is to become more familiar with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blien Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 346 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,050 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1982 Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) Jesus also spoke to a tree Youngs Literal Translation mark 11:12-14 11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple, and having looked round on all things, it being now evening, he went forth to Bethany with the twelve. 12And on the morrow, they having come forth from Bethany, he hungered, 13and having seen a fig-tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he shall find anything in it, and having come to it, he found nothing except leaves, for it was not a time of figs, 14and Jesus answering said to it, `No more from thee -- to the age -- may any eat fruit;' and his disciples were hearing. American Standard Mark 11:12-14 11 And he entered into Jerusalem, into the temple; and when he had looked round about upon all things, it being now eventide, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. 12 And on the morrow, when they were come out from Bethany, he hungered. 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. 14 And he answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And his disciples heard it. Edited October 22, 2007 by Blien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvpeach Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 35 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 God used a donkey to speak to a man . I certainly hope in the future to have meaningful talks with some of my pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffnevins Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 207 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 806 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 141 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/09/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/21/1973 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Donkey (probably not Eddie Murphy's voice), is very unusual, but seems directed to that very specific time & place of the world. What surprises me as much is the guy didn't freak out, but talked normally back. Or maybe he was in shock, but the writer didn't mention this- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeCajunboy Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 113 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,430 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 33 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/28/1952 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Atheist Dan Barker, seems to believe the bible is a fable because it had speaking animals. He looked up "fable" in Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary. fable: n. 1. a fictitious narrative intended to teach some moral truth or precept, in which animals and sometimes inanimate objects are represented as speakers and actors." Well, Mr. Barker was an evangelical pastor, then converted to atheism when he was "disillusioned" by Christianity. He is also very misleading in his argument. He listed 1 definition of fable and used that 1 definition to base his argument on. Unfortunately the person he was debating didn't seem to know much about the bible. Here's a link to the discussion. I believe both side's arguments were weak. My question is, did animals carry on conversations with humans a long time ago? Some people seem to believe that to be true, but I have not found scripture to back that up. Two of the arguments Mr. Barker used to discredit the bible was calling Satan a Serpent and a Seven-Headed Dragon and then he brought up Balaam's ass. One of the problems with this "intellectual" is that he doesn't seem to understand the difference between metaphors and truth. Balaam's ass appeared to speak to Balaam, but I would argue that, God spoke through the donkey and the donkey had no idea what was going on. That's a miracle, not a metaphor. He also doesn't seem to know that you can compare a person/angel to an animal if that creature's character resembles the animal you are using to describe that being. Such as, snakes are seen as cunning, evil and deceiving, so when you call someone/something a snake, you are really saying they have character traits associated with that creature. Does anyone else have biblical passages of speaking animals, that they would like to submit? Num 22:21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. Num 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. Num 22:25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. Num 22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? Num 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [i was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. If I might interject : The thing I noticed is Dan notation of the definition of "fable" as pertaining to animals speaking and conversing with humans, and you also noted that he turned against the entire Bible because of his disbelief in this? Then how does he explain in his defense the remainder of the entire biblical perspective as it related to only humans? How would these explanations and interactions be considered "fables" if all the rest is only relating to human intention and intervention? His arguement would be weak just in this defense alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeCajunboy Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 113 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,430 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 33 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/28/1952 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Jesus also spoke to a tree Youngs Literal Translation mark 11:12-14 11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple, and having looked round on all things, it being now evening, he went forth to Bethany with the twelve. 12And on the morrow, they having come forth from Bethany, he hungered, 13and having seen a fig-tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he shall find anything in it, and having come to it, he found nothing except leaves, for it was not a time of figs, 14and Jesus answering said to it, `No more from thee -- to the age -- may any eat fruit;' and his disciples were hearing. American Standard Mark 11:12-14 11 And he entered into Jerusalem, into the temple; and when he had looked round about upon all things, it being now eventide, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. 12 And on the morrow, when they were come out from Bethany, he hungered. 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. 14 And he answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And his disciples heard it. \ Oh, and don't forget about the "Burning Bush!" I'd be curious to know how Mr Barker feels about a "Christian's perceiving that God speaks through us in our spirits and through HIS? Wouldn't that be a form of an inanimant object, since the "spirit" are not apparent or visible to human eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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