The Jewishness of Jesus and the Loss of the Sacred Writings

[P_Joseph]

[quote name='Tehilah Ba'Aretz' date='Oct 23 2007

I don't think we are using the same definitions for some of the words above. Would you mind giving me your definitions for the words, "Law" and "Grace?"

[Grungekid]

Peter's word?

No if it is in scripture it is the Word of God. The New Testament the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment and very reason for the Old Testament, all of it leads to one place and that is the cross of Christ. The entire purpose of the Jewish people and Israel was for the revelation of Christ, and of course what could be more important!

But for example we know from Galatians that gentiles do not and should not seek circumcision to try to please God (we can certainly be circumcised for health reasons). We are also told how to think about new moons and Sabbath's and diet. Christ Himself was hated and killed for blaspheme, for claiming to be God, this very thing, this claim of the divinity of Christ, that Christ is one with God, IS God is the stumbling block laid in Zion. Of course this utterly blaspheme to a person who is practicing Judaism today as it was then, the only way it would not be blaspheme would be if it were true.

You act as if God spoke those words that Peter spoke. It may be in the Bible, but Peter still spoke the words. I have a hard time believing God would have wanted a completely different religion, separate from Judaism. He was much too Jealous of a God for that.

And we also know from Galatians that Paul was not a big fan of the Jerusalem Church; the church led by James, Jesus' brother.

The individual author's of the Bible are not relevant God Himself inspired every word there regardless of who wrote those words.

Galatians and James are in agreement with each other. God really does not want religion at all, He wants us to worship and love Him, and that means worshipping His Son as a part of the eternal Trinity. Certainly God wanted all of the Jews to come to faith in Christ, the fulfillment of their historic worship, but most did not, only a remnent did, and we can thank God for that remnent.

But read Galatians, read Romans, and if you still feel that gentiles are required to keep all of the dietary restrictions, the New Moons, the Sabbath's, the circumcision, etc, than I would certainly not want to stop you from doing that. But remember that those who do those things trying to earn something from God, as Paul says, have fallen from grace. Out of love yes I think it would be wonderful to follow those things, as long as they do not become a yoke and burden which hides what is really important to salvation and that is faith in Christ as God.

In short, system, Its not that all modern Jews are wrong in their religion, but only the Messianic Jews have it right. You're right, God didn't want more than one answer, and even religion isn't a part of that, only accepting His Son as our Lord and Savior is the answer. Of course, there are going to be those led astray who believe in different Gods and different ways to the one living God, but that doesn't change His answer to the problem. We just have to know the Truth.

[Tehilah Ba'Aretz]

torhah or the Mosaic Law or the Pentateuch also know as the book of law or teachings.

Grace : The gift God gave the human race becuase the human race could not keep the whole Law It is undeserved kindness God has offerd us through His Son Jesus Christ who finished everything on the cross so the human race might find a peace that is everlasting.

Yours in Christ joe John3:30

OK, we seem to be actually using the same definitions. That's probably good. However, I don't see how you can have one without the other. Without grace, there is no hope. Without guidance (Torah) there is anarchy. Neither hopelessness nor anarchy is Godly. He doesn't do things that way. That is why there is grace all the way through the Bible from cover to cover. The mercy and grace of salvation by grace through faith was revealed in the life of Christ but it was there all along. On the other hand, Jesus gave more instructions (Law) than is recorded in the Torah. We are not "Under Law" but we are subject to it none the less. If you refuse to do the things Jesus taught, He will forgive you provided you ask and receive that forgiveness. (My apologies to the Calvinists.) Make no mistake though. Forgiveness and grace is required today, just as it was at the time of Moses.

[systemstrike_7]

The Bible NEVER says that obedience to the Torah is necessary for salvation. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Torah observance is salvific. You won't be able to, because it is not there.

You're right, I worded that wrong. But it does say that those who are not observant will be cut-off from Israel. It is God's will that we observe the Torah, so why should we not?

Yes, but not for the reasons you seem to suggest.

Then what was His reasoning? Is He not all-knowing? Did He not know that the gentiles would be included later on? So why the hesitancy?

And you are qualified to make that judgment based on... what?

Based on scholarly concensus. Even the leading Christian scholars such as E.P. Sanders and John P. Meier agree that we still have digging to do if we are to find the historical Jesus.

Lot's of modern historians are not eyewitnesses to the history they write about, but that alone does not serve to disqualify them as credible and authoritative sources for research. In short your "eyewitness" assertion is irrelevant and immaterial to the issue. He did interview eyewitnesses, though.

Yes, but Luke did not have access to news shows, newspapers, magazines, or the internet. This makes it difficult for any historian. Luke simply had to go off of the memory of others, and don't forget that Luke wrote at least 2 decades after the events happened.

You "know" how difficult it would be?? How do you "know?" Would be any more difficult for modern historians to write historical accounts based upon research who don't have eyewitnesses to interview?

Ask any historian and they will concur that recording history in those days would have been much more difficult. And these eye-witnesses were recalling something that happened 20 years before.

There was much controversy in the early church, and we have failed to see that.

So what?

The church wasn't as "unified" or "harmonious" as people like to think. Why do you think the Jerusalem church broke away from the gentile churches a century later? The church led by James and the Apostles became the heretic church. Why would that happen?

And I believe there was much more animosity between Paul and the Jerusalem Church than we actually think.

Based on what source information?

Galations 2. Read versus 6 and 9. Paul speaks in a sarcastic tone, and he is obviously angered about something concerning those "reputed to be pillars".

Yahweh was hardly a theological God such as this "God the Father" we find in the New Testament. He was very objective and very certain about His decisions, except maybe the whole creating humans business; He wasn't too happy with Himself for that one...Ha!! You are really reaching on that one.

Then what happened to Yahweh? Did He merely exile Himself into God the Father? Where is this God that enjoyed picnics under a tree, who personally closes the Ark, who meets with His Chosen in the most magnificent ways, and who wrestles with His elect? Yahweh is not a suicidal God. Yahweh is not like Jesus. You will find hints of Yahwehism in Mark's Jesus, but that is only due to the fact that Mark loves the enigmatic (or he's just a terrible writer). Yahweh was a God with personality. God the Father has no personality, He merely announces His beloved Son and then withdrawals himself back into the pages of Paul. And was Yawheh not greived that he created man? I think I read that somewhere...

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 25 2007, 06:10 PM)

The Bible NEVER says that obedience to the Torah is necessary for salvation. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Torah observance is salvific. You won't be able to, because it is not there.

You're right, I worded that wrong. But it does say that those who are not observant will be cut-off from Israel. It is God's will that we observe the Torah, so why should we not?

What it says is those who fail to be circumcised would be cut off from Israel. God promised that disobedience would cause the children of Israel to be exiled from their Land. Your problem here is that you oversimplifying the issue, and are trying to universalize the particular when it comes to Torah observance. You are working from the false assumption that all the commandments were given to everybody, and the Bible does not teach that. The circumcision was given as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant between God and the Jewish people. The Sabbath was also given a sign of the Mosaic covenant between God and the Jewish people. The same follows for the other rituals. Not everything in the Bible was given to every person.

QUOTE

Yes, but not for the reasons you seem to suggest.

Then what was His reasoning? Is He not all-knowing? Did He not know that the gentiles would be included later on? So why the hesitancy?

Jesus purposes in His first coming was to save mankind from their sin, but His earthly ministry was to house of Israel. That was His will and there is nothing wrong with that.

QUOTE

And you are qualified to make that judgment based on... what?

Based on scholarly concensus. Even the leading Christian scholars such as E.P. Sanders and John P. Meier agree that we still have digging to do if we are to find the historical Jesus.

And the Bible is not good enough for you. Two men hardly form a scholarly "consensus." What makes them "leading" Christian Scholars?

QUOTE

Lot's of modern historians are not eyewitnesses to the history they write about, but that alone does not serve to disqualify them as credible and authoritative sources for research. In short your "eyewitness" assertion is irrelevant and immaterial to the issue. He did interview eyewitnesses, though.

Yes, but Luke did not have access to news shows, newspapers, magazines, or the internet. This makes it difficult for any historian. Luke simply had to go off of the memory of others, and don't forget that Luke wrote at least 2 decades after the events happened.

Yes, but Luke interviewed eyewitnesses. He spoke to people who witnessed the life of Jesus first hand. And how do you know that Luke did not have written material to work from? How do you "know?" Did they not write history in that day and age?

QUOTE

You "know" how difficult it would be?? How do you "know?" Would be any more difficult for modern historians to write historical accounts based upon research who don't have eyewitnesses to interview?

Ask any historian and they will concur that recording history in those days would have been much more difficult. And these eye-witnesses were recalling something that happened 20 years before.

So you do not really "know." Again, you are working from the assumption that Luke had nothing reliable to work from, but you are going to have a hard time supporting that assumption.

The church wasn't as "unified" or "harmonious" as people like to think. Why do you think the Jerusalem church broke away from the gentile churches a century later? The church led by James and the Apostles became the heretic church. Why would that happen?

What a crock. It was the Gentiles who broke away from the Jews. Secondly, where you do get the silly notion that the Jerusalem church became the "heretic" church??

Then what happened to Yahweh? Did He merely exile Himself into God the Father? Where is this God that enjoyed picnics under a tree, who personally closes the Ark, who meets with His Chosen in the most magnificent ways, and who wrestles with His elect? Yahweh is not a suicidal God. Yahweh is not like Jesus. You will find hints of Yahwehism in Mark's Jesus, but that is only due to the fact that Mark loves the enigmatic (or he's just a terrible writer). Yahweh was a God with personality. God the Father has no personality, He merely announces His beloved Son and then withdrawals himself back into the pages of Paul. And was Yawheh not greived that he created man? I think I read that somewhere...

God in the New Testament is no different than God in the Old Testament. There is no inconsistency. As for God grieving that He made created man... It does not say that God was displeased with Himself. You are assigning a value to God that is not in the Bible.

[nebula]

systemstrike - your words puzzle me.

Do you believe in Jesus as God incarnate, who died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day?

[Tehilah Ba'Aretz]

Then what happened to Yahweh? Did He merely exile Himself into God the Father? Where is this God that enjoyed picnics under a tree, who personally closes the Ark, who meets with His Chosen in the most magnificent ways, and who wrestles with His elect? Yahweh is not a suicidal God. Yahweh is not like Jesus. You will find hints of Yahwehism in Mark's Jesus, but that is only due to the fact that Mark loves the enigmatic (or he's just a terrible writer). Yahweh was a God with personality. God the Father has no personality, He merely announces His beloved Son and then withdrawals himself back into the pages of Paul. And was Yawheh not greived that he created man? I think I read that somewhere...

Wow! How many gods are you talking about? The Bible only has one God from page one to the end. If you are seeing other gods in the Bible who are worthy of worship, you need a new Bible real soon.

Jesus= God

God the Father=God

יהוה=God

The Holy Spirit=God

There is only one God!

[Grungekid]

Then what happened to Yahweh? Did He merely exile Himself into God the Father? Where is this God that enjoyed picnics under a tree, who personally closes the Ark, who meets with His Chosen in the most magnificent ways, and who wrestles with His elect? Yahweh is not a suicidal God. Yahweh is not like Jesus. You will find hints of Yahwehism in Mark's Jesus, but that is only due to the fact that Mark loves the enigmatic (or he's just a terrible writer). Yahweh was a God with personality. God the Father has no personality, He merely announces His beloved Son and then withdrawals himself back into the pages of Paul. And was Yawheh not greived that he created man? I think I read that somewhere...

What exactly do you believe, that Yahweh is not the Trinitarian God? Are you criticizing the bible there?

[systemstrike_7]

Then what happened to Yahweh? Did He merely exile Himself into God the Father? Where is this God that enjoyed picnics under a tree, who personally closes the Ark, who meets with His Chosen in the most magnificent ways, and who wrestles with His elect? Yahweh is not a suicidal God. Yahweh is not like Jesus. You will find hints of Yahwehism in Mark's Jesus, but that is only due to the fact that Mark loves the enigmatic (or he's just a terrible writer). Yahweh was a God with personality. God the Father has no personality, He merely announces His beloved Son and then withdrawals himself back into the pages of Paul. And was Yawheh not greived that he created man? I think I read that somewhere...

What exactly do you believe, that Yahweh is not the Trinitarian God? Are you criticizing the bible there?

I have a birthday dinner to attend, so I will get back to Shiloh's post at a later time.

I believe that Jesus walked on the earth as Yahweh. If it were any other way, then your religion is no longer a monotheism. And don't bother me with the vast enigma that is "the Trinity". That is merely a human invention that strives for logic. As an earlier poster said, Jesus is God, God is God, and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God (which I have grudgingly yet to find). Yahweh can only be One God. He would be much too jealous to split himself three ways. And the Trinity is not biblical. So no criticism there. But I am critical of the Bible. How else are we to learn? I cannot just believe, I have tried that before and it merely led to depression. If you want the truth, you must look upon the evidence with a critical eye. I believe in the authority of the Torah, but not so much the belated New Testament. I believe the historical Jesus was lost in the obsession of Paul. If you go to a church today, you will find that preachers spend more time in the letters of Paul than they do with the teachings of Jesus. The love that Jesus spoke of has been replaced with the theology of "you better do what I do or else it's hell for you!"

[mr1975]

Even Jesus was hesitant to preach His message to the Gentiles.

Jesus came her to teach all that would listen, but as pointed out his focus was on the Jewish Community, and I'll explain why. The Jews have always been Gods Choosen people. Christ was focusing on the Jewish people because they were the ones that were supposed to spread christ message of hope and salvation after his death. The problem was that at the time the Jews though he had been sent to basically become King and to push the Romes back out of Iseral. They didn't understand at the time that his Kingdom was not an earthly Kingdom but a Heavenly Kingdom. This is why the Jews during the passover were shouting for Joy and what not, because they though he was about to be King, but then a few days later he was captured and hung on the cross, and at this point the people realize that Jesus wasn't going to be King, and thus the mocked him.

Jesus help Gentiles and Jewish people alike, there many passages in bible of him helping Gentiles. He wasn't Hesitant in preaching to Gentiles because his message was for every one, Jewish and Gentile alike.

You're right, I worded that wrong. But it does say that those who are not observant will be cut-off from Israel. It is God's will that we observe the Torah, so why should we not?

I am gone answer this but not in the way you want. The first thing you have to understand is Christ is Lord and Savior, you can not get in to heaven except through him, by believing in him and following his teachings. Anything that differs from Christ Teachings is a false Religeon. We are to obey the Teachings of Christ and to put are faith in him, pure and simple.

If you do anything that differs from what Christ has taught then you are disobeying God. Christ didn't disagree with a lot of the laws of the Pharesees, what he disagreed with was two things. The first is how the Pharesees would say one thing and do another, they weren't practicing what they teach. The second was that they either were take the laws of God (10 commandments) and following them to the letter of the law, and what they didn't understand was that in following them to the letter they were also disobeying them, all the other laws they had built on top of that were fine and dandy except that in the process that they had forgotten that biggest thing to do was to help others, to show mercy and compassion to people, it was to love one another.

Now what this means is that you have to examine what your being told, with the Word of God, or to point the Teachings of Christ, if the things your taught or what you practice conflict with the Teachings of Christ then your disobeying god. There is flat out no other way to get in to heaven except through the Blood of Jesus Christ, through are faith in him. Yet this also means we must Obey his teachings as well. It doesn't mean we won't mess up and make mistakes because we will but Christ will Forgive use if we Repent.

Anything that does not go against his teachings or hinder your faith in him is ok. You have to examin the Torah (which is Jewish bible if I'm not mistaken) does it Teach that Christ is the Messiah, is he your Lord and Savior. What are his teachings and do you follow them. The basic principle of his teachings is that were to obey the 1o Commandments, not only in action but in thought as well, we also need to look at the int of those Laws. For example Adultry is a Sin, however just looking at a Women in Lust is a sin.

I don't know much about the Torah, nor Catholism or much outside basic Christan denominations. However I do believe that as long as they teach the same message as what Christ taught, and that you have faith that Christ is Lord and Savoir and only through him are your sins forgiven and you will be able to go to heaven , then anything else doesn't matter, it just following different standered of practice.

I hope that makes sense, im not really good with words and what not.