What apologetic do you use?

[Grungekid]

I don't know that I can show you all of the arguments for God's existence, and certainly it comes to a point where no ground will be made simply because of the stubborn and unbelieving nature of atheists. Really, if you want to argue, you should use anything you can, and you should study arguments being used for God, like the fact that nature implies fine-tuning, or that without God we cannot have real reasons for doing things, and you should also try to understand where atheists find fault with these arguments, so that you won't be caught unawares. Who knows, maybe you can even discredit one of their arguments. The best way is, as my grandfather said, to simply remain in God's truth, but learn as much as you can about the opposing argument so you can pinpoint it's faults.

Usually, argument won't change anyone's minds, and really, God can only reveal Himself through a personal experience, so you may be reduced to leaving things as they are and simply continuing in your faith. Be careful, atheists are becoming more millitant.

[asajoseph]

Hi Wayne,

Been a busy few days for me - I've just been offered a fantastic new job, so making a few big decisions in my life at the moment. No decision yet (trading off a massive payrise, and better career prospects against the relative security of my current job, and ditching my company at a time when they're pretty dependant on the work I'm doing), but plenty to ponder on over the weekend.

Anyhoo, thanks for taking the time again to reply - some very thoughtful points. So let's begin:

The fact is, I could be lying.

Sure you could but read my entire statement. I stated, "the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person." We are not talking about folks who know of her but those who actually have a personal relationship with her. The same applies to true believers in Christ.

I understand what you're saying Wayne (I think), but as I tried to explain above, I don't really think that demonstrates to me that such an entity exists. When I talk about my girlfriend, I'm talking about a 26 year old female human being, of which there are literally millions around the world. So why does my testimony carry weight? Because the concept of a 26 year old single female is something you're already extremely familiar with, and the actions ascribed to her are exactly the actions you'd expect from such an entity.

With God, however, it's different. Imagine I said to you that I had a personal relationship with a talking unicorn, and found 50 people to back me up. Would that be enough to convince you of the existence of the talking unicorn, or would you want to see more evidence to back this assertion up? The fact is, I don't see God, I don't feel God, and I don't think I've ever experienced God - so when you tell me about his existence and your personal relationship with him, it's not quite enough for me to be convinced.

I have no doubt that you believe what you believe sincerely - I am just not 100% convinced that you are not mistaken.

Once again my friend, it isn't about sincerity. It isn't about knowledge, commitment, or even belief. It is about a simple relationship...a relationship much like you have with any other real person. The same interactions are possible with God. Now you may consider me "mental" but the more people who have experienced the same as I have can testify along with me to the same but unique experience. C.S. Lewis, one of the greatest thinkers of our time testified that seeing the relationship with God that others spoke of is what actually got his attention to seek out a relationship with the living God himself. He stated that his conversion experience was a process rather than an event. Mine has been much of the same.

Don't worry Wayne, I don't think you're mental! However, surely before 'relationship', must come belief - before you can build any kind of relationship with anyone, human or deity or otherwise, surely you first have to recognise their existence?

This is what I have trouble doing - I'm not interested in following any set of beliefs because I perceive them to be 'nice' or 'cool' or even 'spiritual'. I'm only interested in what is true, and will follow that wherever it leads.

Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer?

Well, for the simple reason that lots of people truly believe lots of different things -

Once again, it isn't about what we believe but rather what we experience.

Sure Wayne, but I don't experience anything. And what's more, without knowledge, how do I know how to interpret what I do experience? Surely the two come hand in hand?

Anyway, hope you're enjoying your weekend - I look forward to hearing any further thoughts you may have.

Back to the floor then (before I look through a few other posts) - I'm not trying to challenge anyone with this thread. All I'm asking is what people find to be the most convincing apologetic - I'm guessing Wayne would say his testimony of the relationship that he has (hope I'm not putting words in your mouth!). What would others say?

Asa

[asajoseph]

Christ Sheep, Grungekid and Trusting Jesus,

Thank you all for your responses - hopefully that which I've left for Wayne will act partially in response to the posts you've all written for me.

As I've said before, when I call myself an agnostic, I am genuine in that belief (or uncertainty) - I don't disbelieve in God, but I just can't quite get my head around him existing. I've been interested in Christianity for a fair few years now, initially being struck several books and speakers on the historicity of the New Testament, and the likliehood that Jesus isn't just some fairytale character made up to scare young children. The existence of God, however, is never something I've really been able to fathom, and, despite reading an unbelievable amount of literature (I've read books by most of those on systemstrike's list), I've never quite been convinced enough.

But this thread wasn't really intended to be thrown out as a challenge to 'convince the unbeliever' - if you want to have a go at that, fine ( ), but in actuality, I'm just genuinely interested to hear what sort of arguments you guys find convincing, without any real desire on my part to try and break them down.

[Carol R]

Hi,

One thing is that I don't need to argue for God He doesn't need my help.

The only thing I can tell is what I know and have experienced myself.

Love, salvation, healing, guidance, deliverance, continuity, someone who never lets me down, the list goes on.

God has helped me in so many ways I know He is real, I have absolutely no doubts.

You know people find it easier to believe in the devil than God, but even the devil believes in God.

Hope your search goes well.

[asajoseph]

Wow Carol, talking to someone in the Shetlands - I'm muchos impressed!

Anyhoo, you said:

One thing is that I don't need to argue for God He doesn't need my help.

Then again, Jesus did say "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations[...]" (Matt 28:19), so even if God doesn't strictly need your help, he has kinda asked for it in this regard, wouldn't you agree? Clearly, as a Christian you are called, to some degree, to spreading your faith. I know that for many hearing the personal testimony of how God has impacted someone's life can be very powerful (I've enjoyed some of the testimonies on this forum, actually). However, I also know that for others, the concept of God is about as meaningful as the concept of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or Bertrand Russell's tea pot - so, when you encounter these people, do you make efforts to explain the reality of God to them?

[Leonard]

For me it depends on how the conversation develops. But usually I find that when an inveterate unbeliever is losing the argument in one area, he takes a swift side-step 'song and dance' avoidance routine, and starts arguing from another perspective, DETERMINED to hold on to his unbelief, because shear intellectual pride will NOT let him admit he is wrong!

That is certainly the story of my years as an unbeliever.

At the last I had NO FEASABLE INTELLECTUAL REASON NOT TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, yet it was many months before I did so, because in my case it was truly shockingly true that 'satan has blinded the eyes of those who choose to disbelieve....' and those eyes had to opened in an instantaneous, miraculous mannner.

Men do not reject Christ on a logical basis, but on a moral basis.

[asajoseph]

Thanks for your perspective Len (mind if I call you that?).

Richard Dawkins (that oh so civil bastion of unbelief ) has something that he calls an 'Ultimate 747 argument', which, in my opinion, is nothing more than a glorified exercise in begging the question. But nevertheless, thinking along the same lines - there are a number of standard arguments that can be made for the existence of God. I outlined a few of them in my sub-title, but there are others. Would you mind me asking, if, for the sake of argument only, I asked you to pick one as that which you find the most compelling, what would it be?

[Carol R]

Wow Carol, talking to someone in the Shetlands - I'm muchos impressed!

Anyhoo, you said:

One thing is that I don't need to argue for God He doesn't need my help.

Then again, Jesus did say "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations[...]" (Matt 28:19), so even if God doesn't strictly need your help, he has kinda asked for it in this regard, wouldn't you agree? Clearly, as a Christian you are called, to some degree, to spreading your faith. I know that for many hearing the personal testimony of how God has impacted someone's life can be very powerful (I've enjoyed some of the testimonies on this forum, actually). However, I also know that for others, the concept of God is about as meaningful as the concept of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or Bertrand Russell's tea pot - so, when you encounter these people, do you make efforts to explain the reality of God to them?

I always share what I know, and what God has done for me as well as sharing the gospel, I believe in the truth being told but part of that as I am sure you know is how you tell the truth. We are all called to share the gospel and I am always happy when opportunities arise.

I love speaking to people from all around the world. Isn't the internet wonderful.

[WayneB]

...but I just can't quite get my head around him existing.

For me, I could never get my head around the concept of God not existing. The complexity and vastness of the universe was enough to get me started. Adding to the wonder of it, I remember thinking in my college A&P class that something as complex as the human body just couldn't be happenstance. I mean...just consider what it takes for a muscle to flex. Amazing! Regardless, my search began with acknowledgment of an intelligent design in "creation" and I just went from there. I never tried to prove or disprove God. I just took my seeking one step at a time...one day at a time. ...and the witness of other believers had a BIG impact on me.

Asa, I think your question is very valid. More importantly, challenging someone's perspective as you have approached it is healthy. Lastly, you got it exactly right. A personal experience and the relationship a believer has with Jesus Christ is the best approach to apologetics in my opinion. I seriously doubt you will find 50 people with credibility to back up your claim of a talking unicorn. If you ask the right questions and listen to them, you'll find believers by the thousands who can share their experience with God. People of intelligence from every walk in life. Like I mentioned, C.S. Lewis essentially believed the same as I understand his personal testimony. He gives John Ronald Reuel Tolkien credit for playing a significant role in his conversion from atheism to Christianity. Have you read his apologetic? It is in a book titled, Mere Christianity. Consider picking up a copy and reading it. It is an excellent read.

Be blessed,

wayne

[Leonard]

Thanks for your perspective Len (mind if I call you that?).

Richard Dawkins (that oh so civil bastion of unbelief ) has something that he calls an 'Ultimate 747 argument', which, in my opinion, is nothing more than a glorified exercise in begging the question. But nevertheless, thinking along the same lines - there are a number of standard arguments that can be made for the existence of God. I outlined a few of them in my sub-title, but there are others. Would you mind me asking, if, for the sake of argument only, I asked you to pick one as that which you find the most compelling, what would it be?

Yes I've seen Dawkins' "double shuffle" many times. He is civil, yes, but his avoidance techniques show that he is not intellectually honest.

I think I like the ontological and cosmological arguments.