kevkeegsdad Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 77 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/10/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/29/1965 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I came to be a Christian through an interest in science, physics, quantum physics, the grand unified theory etc. so this arguement is one I have wrestled with in the past...or to quote Steve Martin " I remembered just enough to mess me up for the rest of my life." God Bless. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txpaleo Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 29, 2004 Wow your making me proud guy. To see this much interest is truly inspiring and tells me that now is the time for these issues to be addressed. God Bless each and every one of you. Jesus said, you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. God Bless Steve Baird www.bairdclan.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerran Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1975 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Christianity is seen as a persecuter and destroyer of knowledge and progress. Bingo Neb. In fact there have been many cases in history where this is the case. People who make rational observations about something that doesn't jive with what so-called chrisitans believe so they are persecuted for it or worse. It's very sad to see people ignore reality based on the belief that you're teaching something that contradicts the bible when that isn't what it does at all. A true scientist shouldn't let outside information taint his belief, his theories should be based on the facts alone. True evolutionists who are working on a scientific basis will tell you that evolution isn't a foregone conclusion, it's just a well developed theory based on observations and fossil evidence. In another 50 years who knows what we may find. 50 years ago space travel was thought to be a pipe dream and now look at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Nebula, I'm sorry if you're feeling attacked. I'm not holding forth with any animosity I promise you. I know it's hard to discuss topics like this and disagree at all and not sound like you're ripping each others throat out, but we all love you I'm sure. I think we are just not getting a clear picture of what the other is saying. QUOTE (stevehut @ Mar 26 2004, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (Cerran @ Mar 26 2004, 07:04 PM) Who said evolution was random? Certainly not science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted March 29, 2004 No Christian wants to check their brains at the door, but the word tells us that we'll be seen as fools and our ideas will be foolishness to others. Also be joyful in your persecution, I know that's hard, but God has seen fit to have you be shamed for his name, that is a blessing not a curse. Persecution? Disagreement over creation/evolution is persecution? Sorry, I just don't see it. I have much greater problems than this. Christians are perceived as fools by unbelievers, anyway. And if you're truly a Christian, I believe, you'll be ridiculed for plenty of things that have nothing to do with this subject. Sticks and stones, baby. Get used to it, and get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerran Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1975 Share Posted March 29, 2004 No matter what a Creationist says, it's going to be seen as a reflection of religion. That's because in 99% of all cases it is. I've seen Christians argue the point of evolution when they have no idea what the science behind it is. Not to make a 100% blanket statement but a lot of Christians are blinded from facts by their faith. Faith may be blind but that doesn't mean you have to be. If creationists took a more scientific approach they might not be seen as crackpots, but assuming something to be true and then using the facts to prove it true goes against 500+ years of hard scientific methodology. Ideally you assume nothing and make the facts speak for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 QUOTE No matter what a Creationist says, it's going to be seen as a reflection of religion. That's because in 99% of all cases it is. I've seen Christians argue the point of evolution when they have no idea what the science behind it is. No to make a 100% blanket statement but a lot of Christians are blinded from facts by their faith. Faith may be blind but that doesn't mean you have to be. If creationists took a more scientific approach they might not be seen as crackpots, but assuming something to be true and then using the facts to prove it true goes against 500+ years or hard scientific methodology. Ideally you assume nothing and make the facts speak for themselves. Howdy Cerran! My faith is not blind at all. Do you think that scientists who are evolutionary Biologists just go out into the field with no framework in their minds? No way, they go out with their idea of what they are trying to prove and fit the information into their evolutionary framework. Scientists today are not the originators of the idea of Evolution, it's set in stone to them and they know they won't be seen as valid unless they work within that framework. I think it was Steven J. Gould who said that no scientist can be seen as valid today unless they are working from a evolutionary framework, and he meant in any field of science. It is pretty obvious that you have to hold a certain view at the outset to be seen as important. I think AIG does a great job, yes they have a framework of Creationism as a starting point, but they are discussing scientifically. Contrary to the evolutionary straw man about them, they do their own research to prove their view, it's primarily geological evidence they discover but it's good stuff. They can't be conducting studies in every different scientific field simply due to lack of funds. You should check out Creation magazine or TJ and after reading it for a while see how you feel, unless you've already done that. Sorry to be presumptuous. That's because in 99% of all cases it is. I've seen Christians argue the point of evolution when they have no idea what the science behind it is. Isn't this true of all people and not just creationists? The average "Joe Secular" doesn't know a darn thing about Creation vs. Evolution but he'll argue his evolutionary side with fervor just to denounce God, or just to argue. That's how people are. You have to admit that 95% of Americans who "think" evolution is true really don't know the first thing about it. QUOTE (mscoville @ Mar 29 2004, 07:58 AM) No Christian wants to check their brains at the door, but the word tells us that we'll be seen as fools and our ideas will be foolishness to others. Also be joyful in your persecution, I know that's hard, but God has seen fit to have you be shamed for his name, that is a blessing not a curse. Persecution? Disagreement over creation/evolution is persecution? Sorry, I just don't see it. I have much greater problems than this. Hey Steve, I'm not sure what that post is supposed to say. That was from me to Nebula who said she's been painted as a Bigot and a fool due to her creationist viewpoint. Being seen as a fool and bigot might not seem like persecution to you, but geez it sounds like it to me. No she's not being killed for her belief, but it's definitely hard to defend creationism in a world controlled by the evolutionary mindset. I'm sure you're not trying to be mean, but refering to her as "baby" certainly doesn't sound to respectful. Show her some good information about creation science if you want to help. Just so you know I'm not mad or anything, just trying to mediate some respect here. In love, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerran Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1975 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Isn't this true of all people and not just creationists? The average "Joe Secular" doesn't know a darn thing about Creation vs. Evolution but he'll argue his evolutionary side with fervor just to denounce God, or just to argue. That's how people are. You have to admit that 95% of Americans who "think" evolution is true really don't know the first thing about it. Very true, it's just that in my experience Christians tend to be a bit more rabid about their point of view. In fact when I've argued with them on things that point out that the young earth view from the bible doesn't hold with most of the scientific evidence, I've been told I'm going to hell because I'm preaching against the bible. It's sad really when I believe that creation did happen, just it's not explained in the bible because God had no reason to tell you how, just that he did. Case and point, if you talk to average joe (secular or christian) about cabon dating only being good for ~8000 years and that you have to use other dating methods like Potassium-Argon dating it's like talking to a brick wall. However Joe secular will try to understand it, but joe Christian will usually say it's bogus because the earth is ~10,000 years old, Period. Science was given by god to explain things as we learn more, not to disprove the bible, I wish more Christians saw this. "Do not presume to know the mind of God" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevkeegsdad Posted March 29, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 77 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/10/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/29/1965 Share Posted March 29, 2004 If creationists took a more scientific approach they might not be seen as crackpots, but assuming something to be true and then using the facts to prove it true goes against 500+ years or hard scientific methodology. Ideally you assume nothing and make the facts speak for themselves. I will admit that my knowledge of evolution is limited to college courses and I don't have a PHD in the field but I am familiar with some of the basic principles behind the study...a lot of that will also be biased on the particular views of the professor I studied with .... I have studied the subject as anthropology. The Prof. I had at the time claimed that Homo Sapiens had not evolved from Neanderthal or any other "known" (other than Homo sapiens) species but that the species had probably co-existed until divergent elements killed off one and left the other...thus homo sapiens evolved from some earlier form of homo sapiens. She also commented that due to the lack of genetic diversity in the species that in all likelihood the species had been victim to something near "extinction" level event thus reducing the population down to a handful of people. When I asked a TA if that event could have been a Flood as depicted in Genesis I was promptly laughed at...and wound up receiving poor marks. :suspect: You can arrive at one set of theories based upon this information and I and others can arrive at something else. I sat reading Stephen Hawking's The Universe in a Nutshell and came to the conclusion that I would rather have faith in SOMETHING than have faith in NOTHING that was just one step on my path to becoming Christian. God Bless. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Yo Cerran, Very true, it's just that in my experience Christians tend to be a bit more rabid about their point of view. In fact when I've argued with them on things that point out that the young earth view from the bible doesn't hold with most of the scientific evidence, I've been told I'm going to hell because I'm preaching against the bible. It's sad really when I believe that creation did happen, just it's not explained in the bible because God had no reason to tell you how, just that he did. Case and point, if you talk to average joe (secular or christian) about cabon dating only being good for ~8000 years and that you have to use other dating methods like Potassium-Argon dating it's like talking to a brick wall. However Joe secular will try to understand it, but joe Christian will usually say it's bogus because the earth is ~10,000 years old, Period. Science was given by god to explain things as we learn more, not to disprove the bible, I wish more Christians saw this. "Do not presume to know the mind of God" I agree with you on virtually every line of this post with the exception of Christians being more "rabid". People are rabid in general, I'm not sure I could brand anyone more so than another. I'm sure that the Bible tells us why we are that way however. I think it is a shame and an embarrassment when anyone pulls the HELL card. We shouldn't be painting our God as someone so trivial that he sends you to hell for misinformation on the creation evolution debate. It's all what we do with Jesus that we'll be held accountable for. I think Christians just recognize how evolution strips the meaning from scripture and see that the two can't co-exist. I do not believe as some do and are free to that they are logically compatible. Evolution strips the whole reason for Christ's atonement from the Bible. This we know and it scares some people into a knee jerk reaction. It's to bad. I also agree that Science is a wonderful gift from God for us to try and understand his natural world. I'm sure we'll never figure out how he did all this, but I'm having fun learning about it and I'm an artist. Ha. Also I think these boards are a wonderful testimony to the fact that many Christians want to understand not only each other but many scientific and philosophical matters from many points of view. Love you all. ~ Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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