Calvin vs. Arminius

[His son]

Predestination = God's foreknowledge of all our freewill choices.

Exod 19:5-6

5 Now therefore, IF YE WILL will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And YE SHALL be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

(KJV)

Lev 26:3-4

3 IF YE walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

4 THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

(KJV)

Deut 7:12

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, IF YE hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God SHALL keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

(KJV)

Deut 11:13-14

13 And it shall come to pass, IF YE shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

14 That I WILL give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

(KJV)

Deut 27:13-20

13 And these shall stand upon mount Ebal to curse; Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.

14 And the Levites shall speak, and say unto all the men of Israel with a loud voice,

15 Cursed be THE MAN THAT maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.

18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.

19 Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

(KJV)

Deut 28:1-7

1 And it shall come to pass, IF THOU hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy GOD WILL set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, IF THOU shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

7 THE LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

(KJV)

Josh 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(KJV)

Josh 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(KJV)

Prov 3:5-8

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ps 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

KJV

[Cerran]

Predestination = God's foreknowledge of all our freewill choices.

Not possible, if the choices are known beforehand then it's not free will. Logic will tell you that. If you know how someone is going to choose, then they do not by definition have free will. It just doesn't work that way.

[stevehut]

Predestination = God's foreknowledge of all our freewill choices.

No, that is not what predestination is.

Predestination means that God has decided (not just foreknew) the course of your life in advance. It is the very opposite of free will. Read up some more on Calvin and Augustine.

Of course, this does nothing to resolve the issue of whether we are predestined. But whatever you do, please let be a properly informed decision.

[Guest mcm42]

Not possible, if the choices are known beforehand then it's not free will. Logic will tell you that. If you know how someone is going to choose, then they do not by definition have free will. It just doesn't work that way.

Amen Cerran, I'm glad to see someone with some logic speak up. It doesn't matter if God "foreknows your choices" or "predestines them" technically, either way the choice is already made before you make it! Therefore it is "pre-determined".

That's how I see it anyway!

[Guest sanctification]

jmwhalen and mcm42,

"those who by grace had believed." acts 18:27 Even faith is a gift from God.

Also,

All of Israel (the Jews) will be saved in the end. Rom 11. Not because all have been regenerated, not because they have received the Spirit. But because God is faithful and keeps His end of the deal.

Gentiles are the ones who are required to have faith in order to be saved in the end. Am I right?

[Guest sanctification]

<< The idea of the "elect" is something that I have a hard time with. I tend to feel more like LadyC has said. I always wonder what then is the point of the great commission given by Jesus to the apostles to "go into all the world" if God had already "selected" those he would save. Sounds like we were being sent on a wild goose chase if that was how it was. I don't think God is in the business of sending people on wild goose chases. Pehaps I'm not understanding the whole concept there or, like someone said earlier, I'm getting it out of context. >>

Kelsc and LadyC,

Your opinion about free will is something I struggled with a lot too, but in the last half-hour I found my answer; it was given to me by JohnS:

"If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God."

Doesn't this make sense???

You still do have freewill!! The loving act is that God shows you something so good that you desire to turn into the light.

[Guest sanctification]

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

I am an 80% Calvinist. I would swap the "L" of the Tulip with the "I" of the Daisy. I quoted them above.

I wholeheartedly agree with each of those five points. My opinion comes after studying the bible for two years in the privacy of just me, the bible and the Spirit of God, not having anyone or any other teachings. I studied it to be able to grasp the nature of salvation so that I can be a part of the harvest, as God has given me a passion to do. So my motivation in study is not coming from any personal pride, only for the gain of seeing the lost come to Christ. The first time I read what TULIP or DAISY is today.

Just as a P.S., I study the bible in this topic, of the nature of our salvation, for hours every single day in these last two years. There are days where life gets in the way but the average on days I do study is btwn 4-12. So for those of you who think that I choose Calvinism uneducatedly, can know better. It fits God's nature as I have come to understand Him.

[Guest LadyC]

Kelsc and LadyC,

Your opinion about free will is something I struggled with a lot too, but in the last half-hour I found my answer; it was given to me by JohnS:

i don't struggle with the concept of free will at all! and i haven't found the answer by some member of this board within a half hour time frame, i credit my "opinion" on the matter to the Holy Spirit's guidance through my prayerful studies

[Guest mcm42]

"those who by grace had believed." acts 18:27 Even faith is a gift from God.

Also,

All of Israel (the Jews) will be saved in the end. Rom 11. Not because all have been regenerated, not because they have received the Spirit. But because God is faithful and keeps His end of the deal.

Gentiles are the ones who are required to have faith in order to be saved in the end. Am I right?

First, Yes faith is the gift of God for Salvation... we do not do anything for it but we do everything we do because of it!

No, I do not believe all of Israel (the Jews) will be saved in the end. It is clear in Romans 9 (by far the main point of Romans 9) that it is not the descendants of the Flesh but the Descendants of Faith! All who have faith are "Israel". I'm not sure where you got all of the Jews being saved from Romans 11, please quote specifically.

Gentiles and Jews alike need faith. The same faith Abraham had (I.e Romans 4) this faith (or belief) was credited to him as righteousness. So that said both need faith, and only those with faith will be saved in the end.

Hope that helps... God bless

[Guest sanctification]

mcm42,

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not become conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all." rom 11:25-32

They were broken off because of disbelief. They were given a spirit of stupor, which God is going to lift. And I imagine when he grafts them in it will still be by the same means; grace, through faith. But for now their hearts are hardened for the sake of us Gentiles (if you are one like me).

Rom 9

Apparently it is a good thing for God to choose to harden the Jews. Hmm. (vs 17, 18) This helps me in my understanding of how it is a good thing if He chooses not to save those people I pray for.... (their rejection causes the reconciliation of others)

Let me pull a few tidbits from 9:

This looks contradictory:

"Isaiah cried out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.'" 27

"For not all who are descendant from Israel are Israel." 6

Maybe the key to understanding is to examine what God meant by "the remnant"?

"They stumbled over the stumbling stone" 32 (which is not accepting Jesus by faith).

"Again I ask: Did they stumble beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious." 11:11

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." 11:5

"For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" 11:15

What do you think?