Calvin vs. Arminius

[Ovedya]

You cannot punish someone for not doing something that they are unable to do. You cannot punish an infant for not driving to the store to buy you a newspaper when he is unable to understand you or do what you tell him to do. Punishing an infant like this with extreme torture is child abuse of the worst kind. If Calvinism is true, God would be like this father. You can only deserve hell if you have the power to choose God and His plan of redemption.

To back this up with Scripture. The true light, which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. (Joh 1:9)

But if I [Jesus] go, I will send Him [Holy Spirit] to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. (Joh 16:7,8)

Romans 1:18-25 states that man is without excuse. The people in hell will have only themselves to blame. They will not be able to blame God for not electing them.

This is essentially the argument Pelagius made in the early 400's A.D. He said that man could only be held responsible for those things he is able to do. This makes sense from a human perspective, but just does not line up with the testimony of scripture. Scipture affirms in numerous places that we were completely dead in our trespasses and sins and unable to do any spiritual good before God (Ephesians 2;1ff for example). Our responsibility before God is not based on our ability to obey Him. It is based on the absolute perection and rightness of God's character and His morality (moral law). Jesus did not say, Be perfect because you are able to be so!. He said be perfect as your Father is perfect (Matthew 5:5). God has also provided a way (apart from our own abilities) for us to fulfill this law. That is why it is grace. It is not of ourselves (our abilities)

Nowhere does it say in Scripture that faith is a gift of God. Eph 2:8 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. In the Greek "faith" is feminine while "that" is in the neuter. So the gift does not refer to faith but to grace.

Rom 6:23 says: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 3:23-24 says: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 3:26 then says: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Salvation is a gift of God but not faith itself. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Joh 3:16 says that whosoever believes is saved.

How is it, then, that faith comes in Romans 10:17?

How is it that access to the grace of God is though faith, if that being merely the "ability to believe"? Rom. 5:2

How is it in Romans 12:3 that faith is "apportioned" to us in a measure, through the exercise of which the Body of Christ is built (Eph. 4:6)?

So then "faith" must be more than simply "the ability to believe," or "the action by which a believer believes." Faith is supernatural in its very element. I would even contend that faith is a Person

[rca]

How is it, then, that faith comes in Romans 10:17?

How is it that access to the grace of God is though faith, if that being merely the "ability to believe"? Rom. 5:2

How is it in Romans 12:3 that faith is "apportioned" to us in a measure, through the exercise of which the Body of Christ is built (Eph. 4:6)?

So then "faith" must be more than simply "the ability to believe," or "the action by which a believer believes." Faith is supernatural in its very element. I would even contend that faith is a Person

Regarding the first question, the same verse answers it. Faith comes by hearing. In the next verse Paul asks, "Have they not heard?". Indeed the whole world has heard. John 16:8 and Rom 1:18-25 speaks about this.

Rom 2:13 says: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. So all the world has heard, they are without excuse. But few are doers. Now I know that we can do nothing on our own. Joh 15:6 says that without Me [Jesus] you can do nothing. However our part is to abide in Him as it is stated several times in 15:1-6. Once we have faith or become branches like in Joh 15:1-6 then Jesus gives them what is needed to bear fruit.

Notice that branches that do not abide or bear fruit are cast away. This means that they lose their salvation. To be a branch in the first place means that you were in Christ. So grace can be resistable.

Regarding the 2nd question I will repeat that verse and use brackets to describe what is being referred to: Through Him [Jesus' death and resurrection] we have also obtained access [eternal life] by faith [our part] into this grace in which we stand...

Salvation always includes 2 components. One is Jesus' death and resurrection. Without the

shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. In order for salvation not to be universal

faith is needed. That is why Rom 5:2 uses the words "by faith". Eph 2:8 uses the words "through faith". Neither of these verses or any other in Scripture says that faith is a gift.

Regarding the 3rd question. The context of Rom 12:3 is not to think of yourselves too highly, let God judge you. The latter part of verse says: but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

In Luk 17:1-6 Jesus talks about forgiving your brother seven times in one day if he repents. The disciples respond in 17:5 by saying "increase our faith". 11 of the 12 disciples already were saved and have faith. So this was not a matter of having faith but of having more faith.

1 Cor 13:2 speaks about having all faith and that this would be useless without love.

In Mat 21:18-22 Jesus cursed a fig tree and its leaves withered immediately. The disciples marvel at this. Jesus said that if you have faith and do not doubt that even mountains would move if you asked them to, it would be done. Jesus concludes by saying that whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith. When Peter tried to walk on the water Jesus said to him "O you of little faith, why did you doubt" Mat 14:31). I could go on and on giving examples.

The faith in the above verses do not talk about saving faith but faith that things will happen without doubting. With phrases like "increase our faith" and "you of little faith" this refers to measures of faith.

Then 1 Cor 12:4-11 talks about gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit only gives gifts to believers, to people that already have faith. Yet 12:9 talks about the gift of faith being one of many

gifts of the Spirit.

Going back to Rom 12:3 in the light of all these verses and more this measure of faith is not referring to actual saving faith. Saving faith you either have or you don't have it. Saving faith does not come in measures.

Edited December 5, 2009 by rca

[rca]

Jam 4:8 says: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice who takes the first action. God only draws nigh to you if you draw nigh to Him first.

Edited November 1, 2009 by rca

[rca]

This is essentially the argument Pelagius made in the early 400's A.D. He said that man could only be held responsible for those things he is able to do. This makes sense from a human perspective, but just does not line up with the testimony of scripture. Scipture affirms in numerous places that we were completely dead in our trespasses and sins and unable to do any spiritual good before God (Ephesians 2;1ff for example). Our responsibility before God is not based on our ability to obey Him. It is based on the absolute perection and rightness of God's character and His morality (moral law). Jesus did not say, Be perfect because you are able to be so!. He said be perfect as your Father is perfect (Matthew 5:5). God has also provided a way (apart from our own abilities) for us to fulfill this law. That is why it is grace. It is not of ourselves (our abilities)

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [JOH 15:5] The key to this relationship is that we have to abide in Him. To abide in Him is our part. I in him is God's part. As long as we continue to abide in Christ the relationship will continue and there will be fruit. This requires co-operation. If we leave, then our branch is thrown into the fire, that is hell.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. [PHI 4:13]

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. [COL 1:29] This verse shows the co-operation needed. God cannot work in us unless by free choice we allow Him to.

God is not always succesful when He tries to help someone with spiritual strength.

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? [iSA 5:4]

Rom 1:24, 26 & 28 say that God gave them up.

2 Peter 1:3-11 describes this joint effort between man and God. God is guaranteed to always work. It is man that can fail to use the God given strength. God will then eventually give up.

Edited November 2, 2009 by rca

[rca]

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Arminianism</span>

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Considering the acronym DAISY. the paragraphs regarding each point accurately reflects Arminianism. However the phrases used to make the acronym do not.

For instance Arbitrary Selection means random selection. According to Arminianism God's choice of certain individuals is not based on random choice but on foreknowledge. The Calvinist counter point to this is Unconditional election. So ideally the best Arminian phrase would be Conditional election.

The alternative acronym for A is Abolishment of True Grace. The words "True Grace" has been associated with Calvinism for a long time. Calvinists coined the word. However by saying that, they are claiming that Arminianists have false grace. This is quite an unfair tactic since both sides believe we are saved by grace. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

So by Abolishment of True Grace do they mean "Let us have a false grace" or "Let us get rid of grace"? Then all would be damned.

http://www.availablelightonline.com/roses.html which explains how the Daisy was chosen says: In fact, many Calvinist theologians created an acronym of the word 'DAISY' in reference to refuting the Arminianism (a.k.a. freewill) theology propagated by Jacobus Arminius. DAISY, in reference to a defense of Calvinism and a mockery of Arminianism, is defined as:

The same website also says: The purpose of representing Arminianism as a "daisy" theology has been to imply that Arminian theology has no security in the "sovereign" action of God's love, so the adherents of Arminian theology are insecurely picking the petals off of the daisy one at a time, saying, "He loves me. He loves me not," never finding assurance of God's action or of a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. Many Calvinists actually teach that since we love and admire Tulips instead of treating the Tulip as a 'throw-away' flower like a daisy, that by basic human reasoning God loves tulips (and Calvinism tulip theology) better than the daisy (and Daisy Arminianism theology).

So the acronym Daisy was made by Calvinists wanting to mock Arminianists. So let Armininists choose a flower.

Inequitable Limitation. Inequitable means "unfair". As the first point in the describing paragraph starts with: "Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved". This is neither unfair nor does it have a limit. It is the Calvinists that have Limited Atonement. So the ideal words should be Unlimited Atonement.

The above mentioned website call this Impotent Savior.

Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Most Arminianists believe that you can have assurance of salvation. So Uncertainty is not a good word. Considering the first point in the explanation paragraph and throughout the paragraph the thought of a combined effort, I would use the words Conditional Security.

Now the challenge is to get a flower that would fit these more accurate phrases of Armianism. I have figured one out. It has 6 letters. So you have to add another point. A point that sums up all Arminianism is Optional Faith, that is free choice.

I will now spell out the acronym and to the right show the Daisy equivalent. Then further right is the Calvinist counter point.

Conditional Election / Arbitrary Selection / Uncondional Election

Resistable Grace / Sovereignity of the sinner / Irresistable Grace

Optional Faith

Conditional Security / Yielding Eternal Uncertainty / Perseverance of the Saints

Unlimited Atonement / Inequitable Limitation / Limited Atonement

Semi Depravity / Depravity / Total Depravity

Anyway this is simply a more accurate description of Arminianism. I hope other Arminianists will agree. Let us have a flower chosen by Arminianists. So the question is "Should the Crocus be adopted as the Arminians' official flower?". Any thoughts or questions regarding this topic would

Edited November 6, 2009 by rca

[EricH]

Lets keep this to one place. You posted this as well another forum. I am going to remove that one because this thread is longer. By the way, I don't think you want to use the phrase "optional faith". It makes it sound like faith is optional for salvation. The term unlimited atonement could be misleading as well. It could be contrued to mean that the atonement was effective for all (univeralism) as opposed to available to all. The combination of "optional faith" and "unlimited atonement" could lead people to go places you may not want them to go

[EricH]

Jam 4:8 says: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice who takes the first action. God only draws nigh to you if you draw nigh to Him first.

On the other hand we have Jesus saying that we did not choose Him, He chose us.

[rca]

Lets keep this to one place. You posted this as well another forum. I am going to remove that one because this thread is longer. By the way, I don't think you want to use the phrase "optional faith". It makes it sound like faith is optional for salvation. The term unlimited atonement could be misleading as well. It could be contrued to mean that the atonement was effective for all (univeralism) as opposed to available to all. The combination of "optional faith" and "unlimited atonement" could lead people to go places you may not want them to go

Thank you for your advice.

Regarding Unlimited Atonement I like it because it uses the same noun as the Calvinist point but with the opposite verb. The Calvinists have Limited Atonement. If you believe that it is not limited then it must be unlimited.

Now to make my suggestion more easier to understand I will put the paragraphs from the original post of this topic right next to my new phrases. That way nobody can jump to wrong conclusions.

Regarding Optional faith I will write my own paragraph description for this. I will have to think more about this. This present paragraph may not be my final one.

Here it goes:

Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Resistable Grace

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Optional Faith

Faith is a choice. God invites and calls people to believe but He never forces them to believe. It is up to the free will of man to believe. Optional faith does not mean that faith is an option for salvation. For by grace you have been saved through faith.

Conditional Security

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Unlimited Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Semi Depravity

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

Edited November 6, 2009 by rca

[rca]

Jam 4:8 says: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice who takes the first action. God only draws nigh to you if you draw nigh to Him first.

On the other hand we have Jesus saying that we did not choose Him, He chose us.

In Joh 15:16 Jesus said that you did not choose Me, I chose you and ordained you. He spoke this in the Upper room where the only audience were the 11 apostles. Judas already left to betray Jesus. Jesus was saying this to the disciples. He chose and ordained them for the special role of being His disciples. Jesus was not talking about whether God gave the disciples saving faith or if the disciples chose to believe.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (Joh 1:11-12)

The order of events here is Jesus came in the flesh to the world. Most received Him not but some did. The ones that did receive Him God gave the power to become the sons of God. Here the people had to receive Him first. Then they were given the power to become the Sons of God.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [JOH 3:16]

Order of events. God so loved the world. Whosoever believes gets saved. God loved the whole world first. He gave His Son to pay for all our sins. Then whoever believes receives this gift of salvation.

Edited November 6, 2009 by rca

[EricH]

Jam 4:8 says: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice who takes the first action. God only draws nigh to you if you draw nigh to Him first.

On the other hand we have Jesus saying that we did not choose Him, He chose us.

In Joh 15:16 Jesus said that you did not choose Me, I chose you and ordained you. He spoke this in the Upper room where the only audience were the 11 apostles. Judas already left to betray Jesus. Jesus was saying this to the disciples. He chose and ordained them for the special role of being His disciples. Jesus was not talking about whether God gave the disciples saving faith or if the disciples chose to believe.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (Joh 1:11-12)

The order of events here is Jesus came in the flesh to the world. Most received Him not but some did. The ones that did receive Him God gave the power to become the sons of God. Here the people had to receive Him first. Then they were given the power to become the Sons of God.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [JOH 3:16]

Order of events. God so loved the world. Whosoever believes gets saved. God loved the whole world first. He gave His Son to pay for all our sins. Then whoever believes receives this gift of salvation.

So your logic is that everything said in the upper room to the 11 only is only for them? The passage says that He chose them to bear fruit. The only way a person can bear fruit is for them to receive the new birth. The passages you have cited only describe belief as the mode of salvation. They do not address how people received that ability to believe. That is addressed in other passages, for example Acts 13:48

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

(Acts