Calvin vs. Arminius

[stevehut]

Why rely on the knowledge of 2 ppl from the XVIII century when the christian doctrine of the first 5 centuries is so absolutely clear?.

But wait...isn't there a lot of Catholic doctrine that had its origin long after the 5th century?

Right on Steve_Hut!!!

Let's team-up to defeat once and for all these lil' flowers (Calvin & Arminius that is) :t3:

Mobile,

I think you missed the question at the end of my post. Any thoughts?

[Shelby]

Keslc!

I don't believe that there is a list that is forchosen of who will enter and who won't. I do believe time is of no concern to God. He already knows what you will choose or anyone for that matter. He knows what each person will choose. So in essence, this so-called list, could be there, but olny with God knowing what choice will be made. That is my view atleast. I am no scholar, but something I have gleaned from trying to understand God more.

Steve.

What is wrong with people discussing things like this? True te Bible is the only authority, but I believe this is healthy and good for us all. So please don't hinder the discussion. I felt a little "sheepish" after your scolding. (I apologize if you didn't mean it that way, it can be hard to read tone on a discussion board).

Again thank you everyone for input.

[keslc]

Keslc!

I don't believe that there is a list that is forchosen of who will enter and who won't. I do believe time is of no concern to God. He already knows what you will choose or anyone for that matter. He knows what each person will choose. So in essence, this so-called list, could be there, but olny with God knowing what choice will be made. That is my view atleast. I am no scholar, but something I have gleaned from trying to understand God more.

I don't believe there is a "list" of that sort either. I agree, I believe God knows who will choose to follow Him and who won't, but I reject the idea that God has this pre-determined group He chose to save at random. That's what I was saying! Love ya, girl! :hug:

[Guest mcm42]

Now the question remains does man have free will or not? If god is in complete control then the calvinistic view does stand. If not then it's not 100% correct.

So people which is it? Do we have free will or not

This is exactly how I see it. I see God in Complete control, and by your admission that would make calvinism 100% true (understand I'm simply following the reasoning above, so bear with me.)

Also, I would say no we do not have free will... our will is limited to God's will. In other words I don't think we can do anything outside of God's plan, and I don't think God will allow us to do anything that he didn't plan already.

[Guest mcm42]

He already knows what you will choose or anyone for that matter. He knows what each person will choose

Now you say that man is totally depraved, so if God doesn't choose and draw man to himself, is he capable of choosing God or is he totaly depraved (by that I mean totally dead, incapable of spiritual acts unless revealed by God)

If God had chosen the "whole world" wouldn't everyone be saved? I agree, that salvation was opened to the broader span of "the world" as opposed to only the jewish nations.

I'm curious Kels C and Shelby (hey that rhymes ) what you would have to say on passages like Romans 9. Read the whole chapter (maybe you have already I do not know) and tell me your take on the whole thing.

You two are very honest, and open, willing to discuss without drawing swords... God bless your study.

let me know what your thought are ... thanks

[keslc]

He already knows what you will choose or anyone for that matter. He knows what each person will choose

Now you say that man is totally depraved, so if God doesn't choose and draw man to himself, is he capable of choosing God or is he totaly depraved (by that I mean totally dead, incapable of spiritual acts unless revealed by God)

If God had chosen the "whole world" wouldn't everyone be saved? I agree, that salvation was opened to the broader span of "the world" as opposed to only the jewish nations.

I'm curious Kels C and Shelby (hey that rhymes ) what you would have to say on passages like Romans 9. Read the whole chapter (maybe you have already I do not know) and tell me your take on the whole thing.

You two are very honest, and open, willing to discuss without drawing swords... God bless your study.

let me know what your thought are ... thanks

Let me study that passage again and I will get back to you! I want to be sure of what I'm talking about when I discuss it!

[Guest mcm42]

Let me study that passage again and I will get back to you!  I want to be sure of what I'm talking about when I discuss it!

You have no idea the wisdom that packs that sort of an answer!

God Bless your study

[Cerran]

Also, I would say no we do not have free will... our will is limited to God's will. In other words I don't think we can do anything outside of God's plan, and I don't think God will allow us to do anything that he didn't plan already.

So therefore according to your view people are pre-destined to either be saved or dammed? Seems pretty extreme. That would mean there is no reason to try to be saved as everything is pre-determined anyway. If everything was pre-determined then why did we need Jesus?

Just trying to figure out how you can have a deterministic god and have the need for a savior. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[Guest mcm42]

Just trying to figure out how you can have a deterministic god and have the need for a savior. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me

WEll I'll take a whack at it

First of all, Christ is the only reason salvation is offered. God still must be Just, so no one will enter without Christ, that is sure. We need a savior in order to fulfill the wrath of God. We have all sinned against God (my belief) and are deserving of Hell.

So therefore according to your view people are pre-destined to either be saved or dammed

Yes! That is what I see when I read Romans chapter 9, most explicitly it says that God can choose to make, from the same lump of clay, one vessel for glory, and one for wrath. Is that fair? Paul's answer is who are you to answer back to God!

That would mean there is no reason to try to be saved as everything is pre-determined anyway. If everything was pre-determined then why did we need Jesus?

Now, the "reason why" is God's Glory. As far trying to be saved, we don't (in my view) do this on our own. God calls us, draws us etc. and then (as we were created to be) we will walk in the works he prepared before hand (eph 2:10).

We needed Jesus to satisfy God's wrath, none of us get to heaven, unless we are perfect (scratch that) or we are covered in a blood Sacrifice (i.e. Jesus).

Hope this clears up my side for you... maybe it does maybe it doesn't. God Bless... keep asking, I only want you to understand my side, and in the process understand your side.

[Shelby]

Mcm,

I appreciate your questions. I have been studying Romans 9 all morning. I wanted to be sure that I was capable of answering you. I want to make sure that God is helping me answer. The last thing I need is to be giving you my word instead of His.

Overall, I believe God was talking about His "calling". I am called to be a minister, keslc is called to be with chidren's ministries. etc. I believe he has chosen trials and tribultaions for us all to endure so that we might draw closer to him, to see his Glory and proclaim it. Just like the parable that Jesus spoke about regarding the person who sinned little vs the one who sinned more, who would appreciate the forgiveness more. Some of us are so hard headed he needs to give us those trials so that we will appreciate it more. Others learn quicker.

Like in verse 17, (I read in 3 translations) he tells pharoah he gave Pharoah power to show His own power.

I think the Message Bible best says it to me:

10And that's not the only time. To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, 11and her babies were still innocent in the womb--incapable of good or bad--she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that his purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don't do, but a sure thing determined by his decision, flowing steadily from his initiative. 12God told Rebecca, "The firstborn of your twins will take second place." 13Later that was turned into a stark epigram: "I loved Jacob; I hated Esau."

14Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. 15God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." 16Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. 17The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." 18All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.

19Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"

20Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" 21Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? 22If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure 23and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right?

In a commentary I read, it reminds me that "the election of Jacob was not to eternal salvation but, to become the head of a people. As Moses, Samuel, and John the Baptist were raised up for a great work for God, so was Jacob."

He gives us a strong will, just like our blonde hair, and a compassionate heart like our blue eyes. (I am a blonde/blue obviously) But it is somethign that he chooses to help us for His Glory. That passage does not say to me that he fore chooses who wil go to Heaven or Hell. Why do we need Jesus then?

I apologize for such a long reply, but I was challenged and was excited to see God confirm his will for me and reassure me of my understanding of his mercy and grace.

This passage is about mercy and being called for a purpose for His Glory.

Hope this helped MCM!

GBU in your study!