Calvin vs. Arminius

[apologia828]

I made my best attempt to respond to all of the Scripture references so you'll have to point out to exactly what you think I ignored. I agree with all the Scripture quoted. Yes, God does desire that the wicked will come to repentance however He also must grant that repentance.

Acts 5:30,31 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 11:17 "If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

2 Tim. 2:24-26 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

So, why doesn't God grant all the evil men repentance? Because, as observed within Scripture God has two separate wills. One is often called the decreed or secret will and the other is His revealed or perceived will. For example, in God's revealed will He tells us not to murder, yet when we look at the worst murder ever committed, the murder of God's one and only son, the Bible says in

Acts 4:27-28 that:

27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB

It was the worst sin ever committed but God predestined it in order to provide salvation for all those who believe in Him.

Therefore, according to His revealed will God wills that the wicked repent and yet there are certain people that according to His will of decree will not be granted repentance but are vessels of dishonor upon which He is pleased to display His power and wrath such as in the case of the evil sons of Eli.

Please let me know if there's anything that you did not understand.

Edited September 29, 2011 by apologia828

[apologia828]

I think things are pretty clear so I'll leave you all alone. Lol. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Anyway, for anyone who is interested I'm leaving the link to the best exegesis I've heard on Romans 9 by Dr. James White. I beg those who are earnestly seeking truth to listen to it. God bless you all!

http://mp3.aomin.org/JRW/Romans9.mp3

[apologia828]

God does not have two wills. God wants all men to be saved. His grace has appeared to all men. We choose to cooperate with God's grace or to reject it.

I'm sorry, I said I was done but I can see there is still some things that must be clarified.

I think it should be noted the exegetical work I have gone through examining the above passages in length and depth only to find a couple sentences with no Biblical support in response. If you want to say God does not have these these two wills then what you have to do is attempt to refute my example. Simply stating he does not have two wills is not an argument.

Here are two questions that need to be answered:

1. Has God commanded us not to murder or kill?

2. Was what happened on the cross the will of God?

Here are two Scriptures very clear on this issue:

Act 4:27-28

27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. ASV

Who is the subject of the verb "to do" in this sentence? Both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel.

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. ASV

Who was pleased to bruise Him? And who put Him to grief?

I know it's not the easiest concept to grasp but neither is the Trinity however, it's very evident in the Scriptures. This is not a milk teaching for babes. It's part of that meat that Paul talks about.

Therefore, my friend, if you disagree you'll have to point out the error our misunderstanding in my example used. If you want I can provide many more of this same nature but I don't believe I should until there is some interaction with what I have already posted.

Another question is, where in the Bible does it say that grace has appeared to all men or that it was given to men. Who was found with grace pre-flood. Only Noah. The rest of the world's intentions of their hearts were of continual evil. (Ge 6:5) No grace there.

The last passage I want to present is John 10:24-26.

24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. ASV

Notice that Jesus doesn't say you are not my sheep because you didn't believe. No, He says you don't believe because you are not my sheep. This is exactly how it is written in the Greek.

In conclusion, if you disagree I think it's only fair that you interact with the examples and Scripture I have used. If you continue responding the same way I don't see why this conversation should continue any further.

[big bird]

big bird appreciates the breakdown of the two central themes in christianty (above explained) many of us tortured souls labored over for so long. Nevertheless big bird wouldn't want solely an argument at appearing of the sign of the son of man in the sky( if Big Bird made it that long).Big Bird is convinced there are wheat(people) on both sides and tare (people) on both sides,yet Paul himself in speaking of Holy Communion says there MUST be divisions amongst Christians so that those who are approved be may be made manifest among you.

Edited October 1, 2011 by big bird

[apologia828]

God does not have two wills. God wants all men to be saved. His grace has appeared to all men. We choose to cooperate with God's grace or to reject it.

I'm sorry, I said I was done but I can see there is still some things that must be clarified.

I think it should be noted the exegetical work I have gone through examining the above passages in length and depth only to find a couple sentences with no Biblical support in response. If you want to say God does not have these these two wills then what you have to do is attempt to refute my example. Simply stating he does not have two wills is not an argument.

Here are two questions that need to be answered:

1. Has God commanded us not to murder or kill?

2. Was what happened on the cross the will of God?

God forbid murder, not killing.

God permits men to violate his commandments because he has given men free will.

God turns the sins of man to his will and to his greater purpose.

Do you think God is confused? Do you think God is too weak to carry out his will? Your belief that God has two wills makes no sense. I guess it is your attempt to rectify the doctrine of Calvinism with God's desire that all me be saved. I don't think you have succeeded.

God loves us and he has given us free will. He wants us to obey him, but he will not force our obedience.

My friend, it seems that you really have not read some of my previous posts. Regardless, whether you say murder or kill, they murdered Jesus. You did not answer my two questions so I will answer them for you. Jesus was horrendously murdered by Pontius Pilate, the Jews, and the Roman soldiers. However, who foreordained the whole event to come to pass? Acts 4 as we have already seen says God.

Look at another situation. Is it sin for a group of people to overpower someone and sell them as a slave? well, that's what Joseph's brothers did just that. Here's what Wayne Grudem said on this topic (since I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing me, lol).

"Another instance is found in Genesis 50:20. Joseph says to his brothers, "As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Here God's revealed will to Joseph's brothers was that they should love him and not steal from him or sell him into slavery or make plans to murder him. But God's secret will was that in the disobedience of Joseph's brothers a greater good would be done when Joseph, having been sold into slavery into Egypt, gained authority over the land and was able to save his family." Systematic Theology p.215

An important grammatical observation to make in this text is that a Hebrew parallelism is used when it says "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good". It is not saying that the evil you did God then turned into good. That would be a bad translation of what the text actually says in the original language. We have to understand that Joseph's brothers committed this sin out of the evil desires of their hearts yet God planned the situation according to His purposes. He allowed them to do what they did because obviously, had He desired, He could have prevented it. So, yes they did it but so did God. Lol.

It's similar to the situation of the example I already used of when David took the census, which by the way, was not responded to whatsoever.

Here's another interesting example of these different wills that I'll let Jonathon Edwards explain.

We and they know it was God’s secret will, that Abraham should not sacrifice his son Isaac; but yet his command was, that he should do it. We know that God willed, that Pharaoh’s heart should be hardened; and yet that the hardness of his heart was sin. We know that God willed the Egyptians should hate God’s people: Psal. cv. 25. “He turned their heart to hate his people, and deal subtlety with his servants.” We know that it was God’s will, that Absalom should lie with David’s wives; 2 Sam. xii. 11. “Thus saith the Lord, I will raise up this evil against thee, out of thine own house; and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour; and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.” We know that God willed that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel. The same may be said of the plunder of the Babylonians; and other instances 527might be given. The Scripture plainly tells us, that God wills to harden some men, Rom. ix. 18. That he willed that Christ should be killed by men, &c. (Excerpt taken from Works, vol. 2, ch. 3)

Now as to the second portion of your argument I really don't see how it is an argument. Do I think God is confused or too weak to carry out His will? Maybe after reading the above you can see why these two arguments are completely invalid. I think the perfect example is Abraham being ordered to murder Isaac. God according to His secret will did not intend to have Abraham go through with it. God is a God who knows what He desires the results to be and has ordained things as they are to get those results. No confusion or weakness there.

We should actually open up a brand new thread for this topic.This thread is actually a bit too broad of a topic. Hope this has helped some to better understand the incredible will of our incredible God!

[apologia828]

I'm going to answer that last question on Adam and Eve in the Isaac (should be Jacob) vs. Esau thread since it is basically the same question. However, I'll repost it here anyways.

[apologia828]

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin?

But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread.

Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son!

As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it).

4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose —

even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB

This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22.

21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB

If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known.

I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

[Dan1953]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Calvinism</span>

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Arminianism</span>

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

[Dan1953]

That's why God is God. Look at judise, or Saul. I thank God chose me. I think everyone is elected. But few catch the ball. What's more important is the one that asks, or thinks about things like this, is on the right tract

[Guest yod]

I'm going to have come down square as a Calminian Arvinist