jackie d Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,081 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/08/1967 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Please I can't and won't go along with that.... Jesus said this: Jhn 8:1 BUT Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Jhn 8:2 Now early[fn1] in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. Jhn 8:3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, Jhn 8:4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught[fn2] in adultery, in the very act. Jhn 8:5 "Now Moses, in the law, commanded[fn3] us that such should be stoned.[fn4] But what do You say?"[fn5] Jhn 8:6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[fn6] Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[fn7] and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Jhn 8:8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Jhn 8:9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[fn8] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[fn9] "Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[fn10] Has no one condemned you?" Jhn 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and[fn11] sin no more." Jhn 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." Jhn 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jhn 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. Jhn 8:15 "You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Jhn 8:16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. Jhn 8:17 "It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. Jhn 8:18 "I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." I am aware that no one said anyone was disqualified from the kingdom of God....just the kingdom of man where he rules and finds the need to condemn and judge. If we are willing to engage in conversation about who is or is not disqualified and believe it with our hearts, we are just as guilty as committing an act of judgement and condemnation of another person. Man, Paul should never even been able to teach anyone after he hunted down the Christians and had them killed for their faith in Jesus before he was converted. So what is disqualify anyway? Because someone has committed a sin they are no longer qualified to teach the word of God to a congregation because they will know that the man that is teaching them sins too? that makes no sense.... this is true scripture, and I will not dispute the words of my savior and the savior of the woman caught in sin who by all rights because of the laws of those days should have been stoned to death....by the way where were her partner(s) in this grave deserving of death sin????? this isn't my feelings here, this is the doctrine of GRACE. Yes we are to avoid them, but they happen and as Christ very pointedly spoke to the people, he who is without sin.....cast the first stone. we are to emmulate Christ...and the last time I read...it still said "He is faithful to restore" so why wouldn't an adulterous pastor not be restored to Christ and the pastor's ministry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 The moral failure of a minister is a grave event in the life of a church. Must I remind you even the outside world knows this. While we all know forgiveness is possible, we must realize a ministry is at stake. No one person in the church including the pastor is more important than the cause of Christ. If the offending pastor is more concerned with their career survival, they are not sold out to the cause of Christ. A genuine servant will voluntarily dismiss themselves, reconcile with his family, and ask for forgiveness from the church in his farewell address. Perhaps after counseling return to lay ministry of some description with mentors and accountability partners in place. Even if the church is willing to retain them, there is the matter of an observing community. I can tell you stories of damaged ministries that have taken years to return to where they were in the communities eyes. As a minister I don't want to be a liability to the kingdom and the awareness of how quick can happen makes me highly ethical in this area of temptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie d Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,081 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/08/1967 Share Posted January 28, 2008 The moral failure of a minister is a grave event in the life of a church. Must I remind you even the outside world knows this. While we all know forgiveness is possible, we must realize a ministry is at stake. No one person in the church including the pastor is more important than the cause of Christ. If the offending pastor is more concerned with their career survival, they are not sold out to the cause of Christ. A genuine servant will voluntarily dismiss themselves, reconcile with his family, and ask for forgiveness from the church in his farewell address. Perhaps after counseling return to lay ministry of some description with mentors and accountability partners in place. Even if the church is willing to retain them, there is the matter of an observing community. I can tell you stories of damaged ministries that have taken years to return to where they were in the communities eyes. As a minister I don't want to be a liability to the kingdom and the awareness of how quick can happen makes me highly ethical in this area of temptation. and you have rightly divided the truth of this. I don't dispute that we must be accountable... no you have no need to remind me of what the outside world knows. It does not take from the fact that he who loves much, much has been forgiven. I'll bow out of this conversation as it truly does cause a sickness in my soul to know that we find these things so important to talk about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted January 28, 2008 the devil is in the business of seeking who he may devour and taking a whole ministry down is a great accomplishment in his book. But it is also up to those who attend the church to offer up the pastor to the Lord in Prayer as much as possible. The temptation is great..one tiny mistake that a pastor or anyone in higher office is exagererated under a huge microscope. And If that person needs a vacation give it to him.... a repentive heart does not need to be removed from office. Sorry guys. But how abused is your pastor. Think about it. Moses was told by his father in law that the people will kill him with thier problems. How many go with a problem and actually follow with what the pastor says. How many woman are after their pastors...I have seen it. We are also here to treat all those in office as any other person. They are not any more holy or devoid of temptation than any of us. They are fulfilling thier call and doing the best to equip you and feed you. I have seen pastors cry from being beat down by certain congregants. Marnie and david. How many vacations have you been sent on by your church people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Jackie, you are talking about sins done before conversion and after conversion. Paul and the Samaritan woman were forgiven their sins. Once for all. It's a totally different idea, principle. Pastors need to be bathed in prayer by their congregations. They are so attacked by Satan on a regular basis. More so, I believe, than other's. I think, imho, that those who are doing the MOST work for God are the ones who are the most attacked. And Pastors are a prime target. So before it gets to this point, make it a habit to pray for a safe hedge to be placed around your pastor. Ask God daily to protect him from temptation, and sin. Patricia is right, we need to protect our Pastor with prayer, just as he protects us as our Shepherd. However, when it gets to the point when a pastor has fallen into sin, any sin, not just sexual immorality, if he is a true Christian man, he will remove himself from the position. It's not emotional, it's Scriptural. Forgiveness has nothing to do with it. It's about trust. And God's word. In 1 Timothy God used the words MUST BE. He must be a man who is above reproach, must be a man who is faithful to his wife, must exercise self control, life wisely, have a good reputation.....It's not a suggestion. The plain fact is, if a Pastor falls into sin, and doesn't stand before his congregation in repentance and ask to be removed from the office of Pastor, there is something really wrong there and he MUST BE removed. Maybe it would be helpful to define what a Pastor is and does. He's not just the man who preaches. Not according to God's word. This comes from here...Following the Biblical Method of Church...When we start to think Biblically about the Pastor and his role within the church, we begin to understand that he is a man commissioned by God who has much responsibility, and our responsibility to him is great as well. Pastor-Teacher's Role Preacher, Teacher, counselor, shepherd, equipper (belongs to the body; works primarilly with this assembly) 2Tim. 4:1-5 Church's attitude toward Pastor-Teacher One of many ministers: 2 Peter 2:9 ~ He is charged specifically to serve and lead in the church: Hebrews 13:17 Pastoral Leadership Men called to full time vocational service as gifts and a means to assist in the functioning of the Body under Christ's Authority: Eph. 4:11-16 What happens to a church where the leader is in sin? What happens to the witness of the entire congregation? What happens to God's work? Maybe the message here should not be, what to do when but how to help avoid before.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 28, 2008 The moral failure of a minister is a grave event in the life of a church. Must I remind you even the outside world knows this. While we all know forgiveness is possible, we must realize a ministry is at stake. No one person in the church including the pastor is more important than the cause of Christ. If the offending pastor is more concerned with their career survival, they are not sold out to the cause of Christ. A genuine servant will voluntarily dismiss themselves, reconcile with his family, and ask for forgiveness from the church in his farewell address. Perhaps after counseling return to lay ministry of some description with mentors and accountability partners in place. Even if the church is willing to retain them, there is the matter of an observing community. I can tell you stories of damaged ministries that have taken years to return to where they were in the communities eyes. As a minister I don't want to be a liability to the kingdom and the awareness of how quick can happen makes me highly ethical in this area of temptation. Well spoken brother... and from the heart of experience. Biblicist Posted Today, 04:17 AM However, when it gets to the point when a pastor has fallen into sin, any sin, not just sexual immorality, if he is a true Christian man, he will remove himself from the position. It's not emotional, it's Scriptural. Forgiveness has nothing to do with it. It's about trust. And God's word. In 1 Timothy God used the words MUST BE. He must be a man who is above reproach, must be a man who is faithful to his wife, must exercise self control, life wisely, have a good reputation.....It's not a suggestion. The plain fact is, if a Pastor falls into sin, and doesn't stand before his congregation in repentance and ask to be removed from the office of Pastor, there is something really wrong there and he MUST BE removed. Another excellent summary of the issue I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted January 28, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 28, 2008 It happens alot. The pastor has an adulterous affair. While we know it is forgiveable. Have they permanently disqualified themselves as a pastor of that particular church or any future position in another church? Does scripture indicate that they have? Eric are you suggesting by the brevity of your answer to remain silent where Scripture is silent? Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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