WN: Marijuana vending machines open in California - London Telegraph

[The Lorax]

So, I'm insensible, because I want fewer intoxicating substances circulating and infecting society.

I want the exact same thing, and it doesn't make either of us insensible.

The thing that IS senseless is not your desire for reduced drug use, a desire that I share, but rather your proposal for achieving that end. Your proposal that we keep all narcotics banned and send all offenders to jail is impossible. We already have the largest prison system on Earth and we still can't fit every drug offender in jail. And if we could fit them, we couldn't afford to keep them there given that we already have the largest deficit in the history of the world. In order to brush aside those two rather significant limitations, one must either be without sense or without care. Either you simply haven't thought things out or you really don't care about America's economic future.

Oh, but you think execution would be a good deterrent, keeping people out of trouble and out of jail. You think the risk of death would deter people from their drug-seeking activities. You think a meth fiend would wake up and say "You know what? I'm gonna pass on my fix today. I don't want to risk being executed." Just one problem:

ADDICTS AREN'T RATIONAL.

Drug addicts already risk death simply by doing the drug. They know they're playing with fire, but they can't back away, because they're ADDICTED. They go to even greater risks, they rob banks and become sex slaves, just to get their fix. Many die trying to get their fix. Some get their fix, then die from overdose.

Chemical addiction means you care about the drug MORE than you care about your life. For addicts, death is not a deterrent.

If China is such a wonderful place to live, go live there, I will look forward to seeing your posts from there, if they ever come, since China persecutes it's Christians and bans blogging sites, just like this one.

Wait a sec...didn't you just call me out for being sarcastic? "Do as I say and not as I do," I guess.

When did I say China is a wonderful, or even a decent, place to live? I never did. But aren't you the person who is advocating some of their policies? (Like tougher jails and Increased executions.) Yep, you sure are. So why are you saying I'm the one who should go live there?

Legalizing drugs won't reduce our prison population.

If you decriminalized JUST marijuana and freed all related offenders from prison, the prison pop would instantly and significantly drop, obviously. Now, you must think these people would go back to jail for a different reason. ...What? What other crimes would marijuana users commit or facilitate that would send an equal or greater number of people back to jail?

I patiently await your reply and hope we can be a little more civil.

[sweetycakes]

Marijuana is highly dangerous, when taken for the wrong reasons, or when usage is unsupervised, medically.

From the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1774

[The Lorax]

Marijuana is highly dangerous, when taken for the wrong reasons, or when usage is unsupervised, medically.

Define "highly dangerous" for me. I have a hard time buying that label given the following.

- Marijuana is NOT lethal in any amount.

- Marijuana is NOT chemically addictive.

- Marijuana's most dangerous SHORT-term effects are clumsiness, forgetfulness, and paranoia.

- Marijuana's most dangerous LONG-term effects are lung damage and memory loss.

Based on its ill effects, marijuana is little more dangerous than cigarettes and LESS dangerous than alcohol. If you'd like me to expound on this I will, gladly.

I'm not saying anyone should ever even try the substance--they SHOULDN'T--but to say it is "highly dangerous" is wildly false and fear-mongering. There ARE plenty of drugs that are highly dangerous, like coke and meth and heroine, and to include marijuana among them is to draw attention away from the REALLY serious threats.

[The Lorax]

That Daily Mail article is completely devoid of references and sources. It's bollocks, as is the Daily Mail in general. There are plenty of published, peer-reviewed studies out there, and they indicate the link between schizophrenia and marijuana to be tenuous at best. I've done my research. The Daily Mail should too.

Also, I noticed that the article claims smoking "just half a joint of marijuana could trigger schizophrenia-related symptoms." If those symptoms are "short-term paranoia," then they were right. But they don't specify or even establish that marijuana's effects are short-lived (from 1 hour on average to 5 hours at most.) That kind of honesty would make the subject wholly less terrifying, thus losing the limited attentions of the paper's readership. Yellow, rating-starved journalism at its best.

[followerofjesus]

The U.S. could learn from other countries where chemical addiction is viewed as a medical epidemic and not criminalize it.

The way to stem the flow is good rehabilitative treatment rather than throw in a cell to regenerate to society repeating the cycle.

[pamiam]

Lorax, thanks for the postings and info. I've learned some things. Totally agree prisons should be used for criminals and not for drug addicts.

[JustinM]

quote lorax: "I patiently await your reply and hope we can be a little more civil."

* I won't dignify this patently false statement and cheap shot with a comment. *

quote lorax: "Your proposal that we ban all drugs and send all offenders to jail is impossible."

I never said make all drugs illegal, all I said, is keep the ones that are already illegal, illegal. Your comment was either insensible, or flagrantly dishonest. I'm betting on the latter. And I am shocked that no one else here has taken the time to correct you.

Dealing illegal drugs should be a capital offense. That's what I was referring to.

I agree with you about treating the addicted, but not too long ago, our mental hospitals were shut down and the mentally disabled were forced onto the streets. Now, you are advocating opening them up again. I wish this country would make up it's mind.

When we start stressing the importance of a developing child's life, maybe I will start advocating helping the roe v wade survivors that have thrown their lives away. How progressive of me, right?

Harsh prison sentences for drug dealers and capital punishment for their leaders (drug lords). I think that is something we can all agree on. I won't pick on your poor, pitifully addicted victims, but their enablers must pay a heavy price for the lives they've destroyed.

Your idea is to put a band-aid on the drug addiction epidemic. But, a wound won't heal properly unless you disinfect it. My idea is the disinfectant. Disinfectants kill off bacteria and viruses, that's the same category drug dealers belong. It stings and it's painful, but if every drug dealer knew the penalty for his crimes was death, maybe there'd be a lot fewer of them infecting our children.

You band-aid proposal is incomplete and will be ineffective in the long run. Because we can treat millions of people for drug addiction, but millions of children are born every year.

Have you heard of the drug "cheese?" It's a mixture of black tar heroin and aspirin/tylenol. It's believed that up to 60,000 elementary/intermediate school children in Dallas alone have already been addicted to this drug. Hundreds of children have died from it. At around $1.00-$2.00 (about the price of lunch) any child can afford it, just one use of this substance and a child will become a heroin addict for life.

Maybe 10-20 people are responsible for the 60,000 children now addicted to "cheese." Your idea of justice, is rehabilitating the 60,000 children, why not just kill the 10-20 drug dealers for their crimes, so that at least they won't infect anymore of our children? Seems a fair price to pay, but just how much are you willing to pay. In 5 years, left to their dealings, more than 200,000 more children will become addicted in just Dallas alone.

Is that a price you are willing to pay? 200,000 ruined, innocent lives in 5 years, for the life of 10-20 drug dealers?

How about 1,000,000 in 10 years, in Dallas alone?

Please be civil, I sure wouldn't want to hear another lecture from you.

[The Lorax]

* I won't dignify this patently false statement and cheap shot with a comment. *

It depresses me that you think my desire for a friendlier conversation is false and somehow a cheap shot.

Dealing illegal drugs should be a capital offense. That's what I was referring to.

I never said make all drugs illegal, all I said, is keep the ones that are already illegal, illegal. Your comment was either insensible, or flagrantly dishonest. I'm betting on the latter. And I am shocked that no one else here has taken the time to correct you.

By "drugs" I meant narcotics. I know you don't want legal drugs to be illegal and I don't think I said that.

...Why do you think I'm being dishonest?

I agree with you about treating the addicted, but not too long ago, our mental hospitals were shut down and the mentally disabled were forced onto the streets. Now, you are advocating opening them up again. I wish this country would make up it's mind.

A lot of mental hospitals were shut down when lobotomies become standard procedure, allowing otherwise "incurable" patients to be released from the system. (Granted, some would argue that lobotomies aren't a cure for anything, but at least they allow some patients to return to the world.)

Harsh prison sentences for drug dealers and capital punishment for their leaders (drug lords). I think that is something we can all agree on. I won't pick on your poor, pitifully addicted victims, but their enablers must pay a heavy price for the lives they've destroyed.

I guess we can agree on harsh punishment for dealers. I don't support capital punishment, though.

[JustinM]

Quote lorax: "Your proposal that we ban all drugs and send all offenders to jail is impossible."

Quote lorax: "...Why do you think I'm being dishonest?"

I think you are being dishonest because I didn't make that proposal. I said marijuana should remain illegal and then I posted the definition of what a narcotic is. You can say all you want that marijuana isn't addicting, perhaps the drug itself is not, but the mind altering side effects are addicting.

Quote lorax: "By "drugs" I meant narcotics. I know you don't want legal drugs to be illegal and I don't think I said that."

Then why didn't you just say that, instead of what you said in the top post?

Quote lorax: "It depresses me that you think my desire for a friendlier conversation is false and somehow a cheap shot."

quote lorax: "I patiently await your reply and hope we can be a little more civil."

You post seemed insincere, while you claimed to be patiently waiting for a reply from me, you also accused me of being uncivil. I made strong points, my dialogue was civil. It's like saying, "I'm sorry, but it's still your fault." A little passive aggressivism. I would also like to see what post you considered uncivil.

Quote JustinM: "If China is such a wonderful place to live, go live there, I will look forward to seeing your posts from there, if they ever come, since China persecutes it's Christians and bans blogging sites, just like this one."

Quote lorax: "Wait a sec...didn't you just call me out for being sarcastic? "Do as I say and not as I do," I guess."

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was making a point, that if you believe the US justice system is unfair or oppressive, maybe spending some time in China will change your perspective, since they are way more oppressed than any American in this nation and are persecuted for being Christians as well.

How do you think China deals with their drug dealers/addicts? I doubt they are as civil as we are. I think that was a very bad comparison to make.

quote lorax: "Maybe you're happy spending tens of billions of dollars per year on a losing war. Maybe you're happy that America, the land of the free, has THE MOST PRISONERS OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, even more than big bad China."

I truly believe China is a bad country, the government is communist, Anti-Christian, anti-liberty, anti-bill of rights, etc. I think the drug epidemic is destroying this nation, among other things and legalizing marijuana won't help things, it's like adding fuel to a roaring bonfire. Legalized marijuana isn't the way to a drug free nation. Severe punishments for dealers and producers will help us win this battle. We can't expect to heal our nation, if our kids are being addicted to drugs while they are still in elementary school. The festering wound still exists, only it's getting worse and more infected, we need to disinfect our society of the drug virus/bacteria. We need to innoculate ourselves against the drug pandemic, we need to stop drugs from flowing into society. Children are impressionable, you can teach them to avoid drug use in school, but if a child is lied to and told that what the "dealer" is offering is harmless or like candy, then there's not much we can do, they will believe that person. The drug dealers are preying on the innocent and pure in our society and taking advantage of their niave nature. It's heartbreaking that we haven't done enough to protect our children.

A good step in the right direction would be a drug offender registry, anyone caught dealing drugs to children, should be treated as child predators, because that is what they are. Intead of physically raping the children, they are mentally raping them and stealing their innocent lives, a sexually abused child can recover and cope with society, a heroine/drug addicted child will never be able to get that normal life back, once addicted to narcotics, it's over.

[The Lorax]

You can say all you want that marijuana isn't addicting, perhaps the drug itself is not, but the mind altering side effects are addicting.

That means nothing. Any pleasurable experience can be addicting. The point is that marijuana, unlike coke and heroine and meth and PCP, is not chemically addicting. A person can smoke marijuana every day for a year and then, one day, choose to stop. They won't get cravings or headaches or the pangs of withdrawal. There is a huge difference between chemical addiction and the kind of addiction you are talking about, which could be said of many, many legal substances.

Then why didn't you just say that, instead of what you said in the top post?

Edited. Better?

You post seemed insincere, while you claimed to be patiently waiting for a reply from me, you also accused me of being uncivil. I made strong points, my dialogue was civil. It's like saying, "I'm sorry, but it's still your fault." A little passive aggressivism. I would also like to see what post you considered uncivil.

I didn't say you were uncivil. I said we were uncivil.

I think the difference between you and me is that you appear to consistently assume the worst. When I make a mistake, you assume it is an intentional lie. When I invite you to join me in a friendlier conversation, you somehow take it is an insult. Relax, Justin. The whole world isn't out to get you. At least, I'm not. (I don't know about the Chinese spy sattelites orbiting overhead.)

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was making a point, that if you believe the US justice system is unfair or oppressive, maybe spending some time in China will change your perspective, since they are way more oppressed than any American in this nation and are persecuted for being Christians as well.

Saying that America's justice system is fairer than China's is not saying much.

I doubt they are as civil as we are. I think that was a very bad comparison to make.

All I said was that America's got the biggest prison system in the world. That's a fact. Look it up. The only reason I mentioned China is that most people assume China would have the most prisoners given that it's the largest nation on Earth (~1.6 billion people) and also one of the most oppressive. I definitely didn't imply China was civil. Quite the opposite.

I truly believe China is a bad country, the government is communist, Anti-Christian, anti-liberty, anti-bill of rights, etc. I think the drug epidemic is destroying this nation, among other things and legalizing marijuana won't help things, it's like adding fuel to a roaring bonfire. Legalized marijuana isn't the way to a drug free nation. Severe punishments for dealers and producers will help us win this battle. We can't expect to heal our nation, if our kids are being addicted to drugs while they are still in elementary school. The festering wound still exists, only it's getting worse and more infected, we need to disinfect our society of the drug virus/bacteria. We need to innoculate ourselves against the drug pandemic, we need to stop drugs from flowing into society. Children are impressionable, you can teach them to avoid drug use in school, but if a child is lied to and told that what the "dealer" is offering is harmless or like candy, then there's not much we can do, they will believe that person. The drug dealers are preying on the innocent and pure in our society and taking advantage of their niave nature. It's heartbreaking that we haven't done enough to protect our children.

A good step in the right direction would be a drug offender registry, anyone caught dealing drugs to children, should be treated as child predators, because that is what they are. Intead of physically raping the children, they are mentally raping them and stealing their innocent lives, a sexually abused child can recover and cope with society, a heroine/drug addicted child will never be able to get that normal life back, once addicted to narcotics, it's over.

America spends more money fighting drugs than any other country on Earth and we've still got this drug epidemic. What you're advocating is more of the same measures. I'm afraid that doing more of the same would just produce more of the same: failure. We need a radically different approach. I'll tell you about it later, if you're interested in hearing me blab about it.