Rick-Parker Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.89 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted February 29, 2008 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Notice that this scripture does not say he the believeth and is baptized not shall be damned. How can one explain that? Doesn't it make sense that Christ would be very specific if both were required for salvation? No disrespect, but this to me seems to be common sense....if you don't believe, you won't be baptized. None taken. We are talking about baptism. One can believe and not be baptised and still go to heaven. Baptism without faith is a work and can not save. Faith without baptism does save. Is faith without Baptism Faith or lip service? James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself." (WEB) To Rick: Are you admitting that your argument is flawed? a dead faith is not a faith at all; and without faith it is impossible to please God, much less make it into the Kingdom of God. Baptism, as opposed to the unbiblical "sinner's prayer", is a scriptual proffesion of that faith. It is not a work in the sense that we are trying to earn our way into the Kingdom. It is a work in the context of James 2:17 in that it is an outward profession of our faith. If I am incorrect in my assumption of your citation, please clarify. Jesus is Lord. Praise Him. and thanks, Kansas Dad, for your comment. That's not what I am saying. It takes only faith to be saved. The works that comes after faith are done because of the desire to please God. If one accepts salvation with their mouth only, without also believing in their heart and soul, then they will not read the Bible, will not witness, will not change their life in any way (works). If they don't do these works, then in reality they most likely are not saved. That, to me, is what James 2:17 means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The problem with this is you are working from the assumption that "baptism" means "immersion in water." Your assumption is wrong. Baptism into Christ is not water immersion. Baptism, as I stated earlier, is not a religious word. It simply means "immersion" When I dunk a cookie in milk, that is baptism. When I am "immersed" in a good book, that is baptism. Baptism does not define either the object being immersed, or the element the object is immersed into. When I put dirty dishes in a sink of soapy water, that is a baptism. Furthermore, the word baptism (baptizmo) can be used in a both both to refer to the ritual of Christian immersion into water, and it can be used in a spiritual sense to refer to our position in Christ. Shiloh spot on Brother to everything you have said, concerning Baptism. Excuse me while I go "baptize" my Oreo's in milk! If what you are saying is true then why do the Apostles and their disciples go about baptising people, and insist that water, physical water, is necessary. Your assumptions do not line up with scripture. The only reply to this has been , OH the Apostles didn't know what they were doing until Paul came along. What a load of bunk. And Shiloh you are dancing all around the question " If God commanded it and says it is necessary, then what is it necessary for. If you don't get Baptised just as the Apostles teach us of baptism through their actions and words, which ALWAYS included physical water, What happens. If you don't do what is necessary then you wont "get" what ever it was necessary for. You claim that you only have to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, yet we see the eunuch made a heart felt proclamation of his faith and yet this wasn't enough. He didn't become baptised in the Holy Spirit from this. Phillip Immediately stopped the chariot, BECAUSE WATER was near by. and he was Baptised. Your play on the word Baptism flies in the face of the Apostles. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29, 2008 The problem with this is you are working from the assumption that "baptism" means "immersion in water." Your assumption is wrong. Baptism into Christ is not water immersion. Baptism, as I stated earlier, is not a religious word. It simply means "immersion" When I dunk a cookie in milk, that is baptism. When I am "immersed" in a good book, that is baptism. Baptism does not define either the object being immersed, or the element the object is immersed into. When I put dirty dishes in a sink of soapy water, that is a baptism. Furthermore, the word baptism (baptizmo) can be used in a both both to refer to the ritual of Christian immersion into water, and it can be used in a spiritual sense to refer to our position in Christ. Shiloh spot on Brother to everything you have said, concerning Baptism. Excuse me while I go "baptize" my Oreo's in milk! If what you are saying is true then why do the Apostles and their disciples go about baptising people, and insist that water, physical water, is necessary. Your assumptions do not line up with scripture. The only reply to this has been , OH the Apostles didn't know what they were doing until Paul came along. What a load of bunk. And Shiloh you are dancing all around the question " If God commanded it and says it is necessary, then what is it necessary for. If you don't get Baptised just as the Apostles teach us of baptism through their actions and words, which ALWAYS included physical water, What happens. If you don't do what is necessary then you wont "get" what ever it was necessary for. You claim that you only have to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, yet we see the eunuch made a heart felt proclamation of his faith and yet this wasn't enough. He didn't become baptised in the Holy Spirit from this. Phillip Immediately stopped the chariot, BECAUSE WATER was near by. and he was Baptised. Your play on the word Baptism flies in the face of the Apostles. God Bless, K.D. I don't think you have read Shiloh's response. At least your response to him doesn't line up for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The problem with this is you are working from the assumption that "baptism" means "immersion in water." Your assumption is wrong. Baptism into Christ is not water immersion. Baptism, as I stated earlier, is not a religious word. It simply means "immersion" When I dunk a cookie in milk, that is baptism. When I am "immersed" in a good book, that is baptism. Baptism does not define either the object being immersed, or the element the object is immersed into. When I put dirty dishes in a sink of soapy water, that is a baptism. Furthermore, the word baptism (baptizmo) can be used in a both both to refer to the ritual of Christian immersion into water, and it can be used in a spiritual sense to refer to our position in Christ. Shiloh spot on Brother to everything you have said, concerning Baptism. Excuse me while I go "baptize" my Oreo's in milk! If what you are saying is true then why do the Apostles and their disciples go about baptising people, and insist that water, physical water, is necessary. Your assumptions do not line up with scripture. The only reply to this has been , OH the Apostles didn't know what they were doing until Paul came along. What a load of bunk. And Shiloh you are dancing all around the question " If God commanded it and says it is necessary, then what is it necessary for. If you don't get Baptised just as the Apostles teach us of baptism through their actions and words, which ALWAYS included physical water, What happens. If you don't do what is necessary then you wont "get" what ever it was necessary for. You claim that you only have to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, yet we see the eunuch made a heart felt proclamation of his faith and yet this wasn't enough. He didn't become baptised in the Holy Spirit from this. Phillip Immediately stopped the chariot, BECAUSE WATER was near by. and he was Baptised. Your play on the word Baptism flies in the face of the Apostles. God Bless, K.D. I don't think you have read Shiloh's response. At least your response to him doesn't line up for me Shiloh is stating that we are applying too narrow of an understanding to the word Baptism and he offered several possible alternative understandings. I am not disputing that it can have different meanings. What I am disputing is that we can't know what meaning the Apostles understood. It is abundantly clear through multiple examples exactly what the Apostles understood. Every single example we have from the Apostles included physical water. Just making a profession of faith even if it was real and heart changing did not replace the immediate action of the Apostles which ALWAYS included physical water. Shiloh attempt to imply different possible understandings to the word Baptism is not supported in scripture. Yes there very well may be different possible interpretations, but we must use the interpretation given to us in scripture and it includes physical water. Being "born of woman" is not the example given to us over and over again in scripture. It always includes physical water so we MUST conclude that the reference to water is in fact water and not "being born" I hope this explains what I am trying to show better, God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 400 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,903 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/19/1942 Share Posted February 29, 2008 the following is matthew henry's commentary on mark 16:15-16: The evidences of the truth of the gospel are so full, that those who receive it not, may justly be upbraided with their unbelief. Our blessed Lord renewed his choice of the eleven as his apostles, and commissioned them to go into all the world, to preach his gospel to every creature. Only he that is a true Christian shall be saved through Christ. Simon Magus professed to believe, and was baptized, yet he was declared to be in the bonds of iniquity: see his history in Ac 8:13 to 25. Doubtless this is a solemn declaration of that true faith which receives Christ in all his characters and offices, and for all the purposes of salvation, and which produces its right effect on the heart and life; not a mere assent, which is a dead faith, and cannot profit. The commission of Christ's ministers extends to every creature throughout the world, and the declarations of the gospel contain not only truths, encouragements, and precepts, but also most awful warnings. Observe what power the apostles should be endued with, for confirming the doctrine they were to preach. These were miracles to confirm the truth of the gospel, and means of spreading the gospel among nations that had not heard it. (Mk 16:19) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 If what you are saying is true then why do the Apostles and their disciples go about baptising people, and insist that water, physical water, is necessary. Well, it is apparent you are confusing issues. I never said that water was not necssary for Christian baptism. I am saing that "baptism" is not a religious word and was used in the secular Greek world as well as in Scripture. It simply means "immersion." It does not carry the specific definition of "immersion in water." It can be used in both a literal and figurative sense. Your assumptions do not line up with scripture. You don't even know what my assumptions are. It is obvious from you post that you are responding to what you think I said, and to what I wrote. The only reply to this has been , OH the Apostles didn't know what they were doing until Paul came along. What a load of bunk.I never said that, nor did I imply it. You are trying to refute an argument I did not raise. And Shiloh you are dancing all around the question " If God commanded it and says it is necessary, then what is it necessary for.No, I didn't dance around it all. If God commanded it, then it is necssary on the basis that He commands it. That, does not mean that is necssary for salvation, though. If you don't get Baptised just as the Apostles teach us of baptism through their actions and words, which ALWAYS included physical water, What happens. I don't know. I am not advance people engaging in Christian baptism without water. If you don't do what is necessary then you wont "get" what ever it was necessary for.??? whatever. You claim that you only have to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, No I did not make that claim, and I defy you to copy and post any remark me to that effect. yet we see the eunuch made a heart felt proclamation of his faith and yet this wasn't enough. He didn't become baptised in the Holy Spirit from this. Phillip Immediately stopped the chariot, BECAUSE WATER was near by. and he was Baptised. Your play on the word Baptism flies in the face of the Apostles. No, it doesn't. Again, your problem is that you didn't take the time to try and understand. I did not say that water was not necssary. What I am saying is that not EVERY refererence to baptism in the New Testament carries the idea of "immersion in water." Each reference to "baptism" needs to be understood in the context in which it is used. Sometimes it does refer to water immersion. Other times, it refers to be immersed into Christ. Sometimes baptism is used in connection to being Baptized by the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mali Posted March 1, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1, 2008 Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 1, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.89 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no. If you actually believe what you seem to be saying, that sin is remitted only after baptism, then Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient enough to save us. Is that what you are saying? You can't have it both ways. Either Christ's blood is enough and you don't need baptism to be saved, or Christ's blood plus something else brings salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest locuveritas Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no. that is so true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no. No, it is the blood of Jesus alone and His finished work on the cross alone that brings remission of sins. Our faith should be in Christ, not in baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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