WN: 70 Palestinians killed in IDF operation in Gaza - Ynet News

[Scarletprayers]

Shiloh, Neb and Old Timer!

[nebula]

OK - I'm back.

What I have tried to ask you, Elchingen, is this:

Do you understand that the Arab nations are trying tow wipe out the Jews?

This is what the 6-Day war was about. This is what the Yom Kippur war was about. This is what the current conflict is about.

Arafat himself said he wanted the Jews driven out. Achminj...whatever of Iran is calling for their deaths. The leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah are crying for their destruction. The Palestinians are teaching their children in school that Israel is "the little Satan", that the Jews are evil, that they don't deserve to live.

And you are jumping on our case for supporting Israel's right to self-defense?

What would you have Israel do?

Surrender the historical lands of Judea and Samaria to the Palestinians? Have you heard what they have done to Bethlehem? Would you make Jerusalem like Bethlehem?

Do you know what the Palestinians are doing to the Christians living in their land?

Have you heard what has happened to the Christians in Lebanon since Israel withdrew?

If Israel wanted the Palestinians destroyed, they could have easily done so a long time ago. But they haven't. Have you considered this in the equation?

But we have the light. WE HAVE IT! We aren't waiting and watching and hoping , except for that final day, but He is in us! He is with us NOW! We have so much we can give.

So . . . what are you doing about reaching the Palestinians with the light of Jesus?

But Israel, though it be a people, is still a nation and a government.

The prophets spoke against her then in her errors.

They speak against her now.

And what did Jesus say about judging others' sins and casting stones.

Is not this is what you are doing here. Because Israel has sinned they deserve to be condemned, cast out of their land, have rockets fired indescriminately upon their civilian population, . . . ?

[Elchingen]

shilo:

The reference was to the self-righteousness of Jonah, not a point-to-point analogy of Israel or Palestine to Nineveh. Jonah saw only the bad of the Ninivites and not that, like him, they were human beings capapble of both right and wrong.

What bothers me about the persepctive you folks have is that you don't see Palestinians as people. You see as dogs like some of Israel's most powerful people do.

You and nebula throw out all kinds of "facts" about universal health care and what blessing Israel is to these occupied people, but why then are all of these Palestinian hospitals unable to get enough supplies, the people enough food while the IDF seals them off? They used to do so to cities and towns, and now they do it to the entire Gaza strip. Likewise, you wryly lament the fates of those who are NOT Hamas by saying, "Look what Hamas has done!"

If there are terror suspects, the IDF has the military power to move in and capture them. Instead, they lay waste.

BTW, replacement theology, which you accuse me of adhering to, says that Israel has no place in Gods plans after Christ. You should know from reading the entirety of the post you are quoting from that I don't accept that belief.

This kind of speaking-out-both-sides-of-your-mouth form of "discussion" is why you tend to be a bit frustrating. As I said earlier, you guys ignore my valid points completely and make a case out of some absurdity. Like replacement theology. C'mon, already, nobody who reads their Bible can honestly swallow that one!

Also, when it comes to Israeli soldiers dragging children over barbed wire or breaking their limbs in interrogations, or when world health officials cringe at the brutality done to Palestinian children by IDF soldiers on a regular basis(now this is if you read these things, and there are regular reports, mind you), I don't think you can technically blame the Intifada. Likewise, as you praise the blessings Israel has bestowed on their captors, remember the random searches in which soldiers enter a house, drag anything movable into the center of it(all this while the family is held at gunpoint), take turns peeing on the pile of belongings they have made, and then exit when they haven't found any "contraband".

In closing, I never called for the destruction of Israel EVER in any post I've made. You are putting words in my mouth. I believe it's called a strawman argument, isn't it? It's neither something I wish, nor something I ever think would happen.

And I am Jewish by association, brother. Just ask Paul.

In Christ.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Elchingen

[Elchingen]

nebula:

Did you know that for decades the Arab states have tried to come to terms with Israel, accepting their existence, accepting their right to be a people and nation, and all the Arabs have asked was for Israel to leave the occupied territories? The first initiative was in 1971, not in 1979 as is generally believed. Most scholars take 1979 because that was the first agreement that Israel accepted, and that is because Israel refuses to leave the occupied territories. There have been countless offers from Syria, from Saudi Arabia, from Iraq, from nations outside of the region, but Israel either rejects the offers or so escalates a crisis as to drive the peace feelers away.

Why else do you think there has been a FORTY YEAR stalemate?

It's fine if she does not want to give up her land. I won't argue it. But to say the Arabs have been, and still are , trying to destroy Israel is a mistake. The rejectionism is on Israel, not the Arabs. It was, in fact, Henry Kissinger who said the US should agree to Israels policy of a "status quo", that is, a rejection of any peace agreement that meant the relinquishing of territory, which was, I think in 1971 or 1972. This rejectionism was a direct cause of the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

That is fine by me, as I have stated.

But you can not have your cake and eat it too. That is, you can not turn down peace agreements and then accuse the attempted peacemakers of trying to end your existence!

Please, go and fact-check this. You may be suprised.

As to what I would have Israel do--I said earlier. Either assimilate or liberate. But to assimilate, Israel does what it calls "compromising their unique demographic", and if they liberate, then "we abandon the hopes of a greater Israel". Again, they are trying to have both and gaining neither.

I ask you, after forty years, what does Israel expect the occupied Palestinians to do?

In Christ.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Elchingen

[nebula]

This rejectionism was a direct cause of the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

Elchingen -

Who started the Yom Kippur War? And why?

OK, now - who started the 6-day War in 1967? And why?

[Guest shiloh357]

The reference was to the self-righteousness of Jonah, not a point-to-point analogy of Israel or Palestine to Nineveh. Jonah saw only the bad of the Ninivites and not that, like him, they were human beings capapble of both right and wrong.

What bothers me about the persepctive you folks have is that you don't see Palestinians as people. You see as dogs like some of Israel's most powerful people do.

Wrong. I do not see the Palestinians "dogs." What I do see is that they support terrorism and the destruction of Israel and on that basis I stand against their agenda. They have made themselves into an evil people as a result of this agenda. If they would only give up this insane belief that they must destrsoy Israel and give up terrorism as means of achieving social and political objectives, they would be the most prosperous Arab entity in the Middle east. As it stands, they have accomplished nothing but to create an environment of despair for themselves by seeking Israel's destruction.

You and nebula throw out all kinds of "facts" about universal health care and what blessing Israel is to these occupied people, but why then are all of these Palestinian hospitals unable to get enough supplies, the people enough food while the IDF seals them off?

There is the problem. Your hatred for Israel will not allow you to acknowledge the good Israel has done for the Palestinians. Isael gets no credit for what it has done, because if you did acknowledge the the free health care, the free financial benefits, the better living conditions, it would force you to look at the real source of Palestinian suffering. Israel has done for the Palestinians what the Arab world refused to do when the Arab world controled the West Bank and Gaza for 19 years. They brutalized the Palestinians, but people like you don't want to recognize any suffering of the Palestinians that you cannot blame on the Jews. Funny how when the Palestinians were being mistreated by Jordan and Egypt, where were no special sessions of the UN Security Council, no calls for Palestinian independence, no accusations of, or investigations into human rights violations by Jordan or Egypt while Palestinian children were dying of preventable childhood diseases, no one cared about the "plight" and suffering of the Palestinians until they felt they could pin the problem on the Jews. That same kind of irrational hatred is still allive and well. It is that kind of dishonest and anti-Semitic treatment of Israel that shows the kind of irrational hatred that Israel is forced to deal with.

You are bent upon looking that problems the Palestinians face in a vacuum. Yes, they suffer when Israel has to take defensive countermeausures against them. Israel is forced to take those measures as result of the terrorism the Palestinians continue foment and perpetuate against Israel. You seem forget that the Palestinians want a war with Israel. They suffer as the direct result of a conflict they started. That little fact seems to get lost on you. Every kindness that Israel shows is repaid to Israel with more terrorism and more dead Jews on the streets of Israel.

What is ridiculous about your response is that you ignore reasons for why the Palestinians experience suffering at the hands of Israel. You complain about the suffering and the inconvenience of being cut off from supplies while Israel has to go into Palestinian towns hunting for the terrorists, but what you ignore is that while the Palestinians are suffering these inconveniences, Israel is having to sift through the mangled, bloody wreckage of yet another city bus or the rubble of another supermarket, picking pieces of Jewish bodies of babies and the elderly whose bodies were shredded by a pipe bomb or torn asunder by another explosive Palestinian bomb belt. Then there are the surviors who have to live the rest of their lives, maimed crippled and/or have to live in the absence of a spouse, child, parent or other loved as a result of Palestinian terrorism. Israel's defensives countermeasures tend to pretty mild when compared with the carnage the Palestinians inflict indiscriminately on the most innocent and vulnerable members of Israeli Jewish society.

But, you don't want to talk about the REASONS for Palestinian suffering. You put on the blinders when it comes to examining the actions and policies of the Palestinians which precipitated an Israeli response. That only shows the level of intellectual dishonesty with which people like you, KatyAnn and Inglesio approach this conflict.

Likewise, you wryly lament the fates of those who are NOT Hamas by saying, "Look what Hamas has done!"

But the voted for Hamas. They voted by a landslide for Hamas and by voting for Hamas to be their leaders and to be their representative government, they have live with the responsibilities and the reulting consequences that come with that decision. Since they voted for Hamas, knowing full well what Hamas' polices were, then it is only natural to hold the Palestinians accountable for the actions and polices of their freely and overwhelmingly elected representative government.

If there are terror suspects, the IDF has the military power to move in and capture them. Instead, they lay waste.

They do. That is the point. There is no way Israel can, given the way the terrorist embed themselves among the civilians, hunt for the terrorists without it having some corollary effect on the people as well.

You fail to note a moral distincition in this conflict. The Palestinians seek Israel's destruction and thus target indiscriminately the most vulnerable members of Israel's society. When they shoot those Qassam rockets, they have no idea where they will hit. They simply hope they kill Jews. It doesn't matter which Jews, they just want to kill some Jews. Any Jews will do. Same with the suicide bombers. The goal is to cause as much carnage possible and they don't care who murdered in the process. Israel on the other hand targets the terrorists. Yes, some civilians tend to suffer in Israel's responses, but that is the fault of the terorists who purposefully put those civilians in harm's way to ensure that they are able to score propaganda points in the process.

Israel does not target the civilians, nor the innocent folks among the Palestinians and that is the glaring difference. Israel cannot, possibly fight an antiseptic war where no innocents suffer as result of their responses. Israel's actions are purely defensive in nature and are the result of a sincere attempt at self-defense, and are not motivated by some desire to terrorize, disenfranchize, brutalize, oppress, discriminate against, or otherwise harm the Palestinians. Israel has no desire to destroy the Palestinians. It is the Palestinians who supported Adolf Hitler in WWII, and who still teach their children the racist agenda once penned in Mein Kampf.

BTW, replacement theology, which you accuse me of adhering to, says that Israel has no place in Gods plans after Christ. You should know from reading the entirety of the post you are quoting from that I don't accept that belief.

This kind of speaking-out-both-sides-of-your-mouth form of "discussion" is why you tend to be a bit frustrating. As I said earlier, you guys ignore my valid points completely and make a case out of some absurdity. Like replacement theology. C'mon, already, nobody who reads their Bible can honestly swallow that one!

Well, that is what you are espousing by claiming to be "Jew" or an "Israelite" by virtue of belief in Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whether you like it or not, that is what you were espousing. If it offends you, that correctly pegged that erroneous belief for what it is, that is your problem, not mine.

Also, when it comes to Israeli soldiers dragging children over barbed wire or breaking their limbs in interrogations, or when world health officials cringe at the brutality done to Palestinian children by IDF soldiers on a regular basis(now this is if you read these things, and there are regular reports, mind you), I don't think you can technically blame the Intifada. Likewise, as you praise the blessings Israel has bestowed on their captors, remember the random searches in which soldiers enter a house, drag anything movable into the center of it(all this while the family is held at gunpoint), take turns peeing on the pile of belongings they have made, and then exit when they haven't found any "contraband".

Oh please... You are looking that actions of individual Israeli soldiers as if what they are doing is representative of Israeli policy. Many Israeli soldiers sit in Israeli prisons for life as a result of atrocities they have committed. Israseli soldier misconduct cannot be viewed as "This is what Israel does." When a Muslim/Arab commits an atrocity or act of terrorism, we are constantly told not to view that as being representative of Muslims or Islam, yet when individual Israeli soldiers commit atrocities, people like you hold these things up as if it were indicative of Israeli policy or Israeli sentiments.

Funny, cause while Israeli soldiers spend the rest of their lives in prison when convicted of atrocities, the Palestinians name streets in their towns after suicide bombers. They even have bubblegum trading cards with the images of terrorists on them for the children. The Palestinians glorify the terrorists as objects of honor and affection for their efforts to murder Jews.

In closing, I never called for the destruction of Israel EVER in any post I've made. You are putting words in my mouth. I believe it's called a strawman argument, isn't it?

No, its called accusing me of saying something I did not say. I never accused you of wanting to see Israel destroyed. May be you need to start practicing a little more integrity and/or take some classes in reading comprehension.

[Guest shiloh357]

Did you know that for decades the Arab states have tried to come to terms with Israel, accepting their existence, accepting their right to be a people and nation, and all the Arabs have asked was for Israel to leave the occupied territories?

False. The Arab world has NEVER tried to come to grips with Israel's existance. That is why Israel has had to suffer six wars all of which the Arabs started, AND near daily terrorist attacks for 60 years. Israel constantly endures calls for its destruction, even from the Arabs that enjoy Israeli citizenship and protected freedoms within Israel, itself.

Look at Gaza. There is not ONE Jew living in Gaza. The minute Israel left Gaza, within 24 hours, Qassam rockets began falling on to Israeli cities. The Palestinians began burning down the greenhouses that Israel left behind, and they began destroying the infrastructure they needed prosper. Gaza is now a seed bed for terrorist organizations, the Christians in Gaza are far worse off being brutalized and persecuted by Hamas, Hamas has banned needed food from being imported from Israel into the territory, Palestinians are being exploited by checkpoints manned by young Palestinian boys armed with machine guns and forcing their fellow Palestinians to pay a fee just to pass through the checkpoints in order to go to and from work (funny how no one wants to talk about these check points). Gang and turf warfare abound particulary between Hamas and Fatah, and over $700 Million in internatinoal aid to Hamas cannot be accounted for. I am sure that dollar amount has increased. None of that can be be blamed on Israel.

The Palestinians do not deserve a country as they have demonstrated that they could not run a country if they had one. Israel's disengagement from Gaza did not decrease terorrorism, it is not cause the Arabs to cease calling for Israel's destruction, and only demonstrates what can be expected if Israel were to leave the West Bank. Israel's withdraw from Gaza has proven that it is not Israel's presence in Gaza that was the problem. It is Israel's very existance that is the problem.

The Palestine Liberation Organization was created by Yasir Arafat to "liberate the Palestinians from the "occupation" according to the late Yasir Arafat. Yet, the PLO was created in 1964, three years before there was ONE Jew in either the West Bank or Gaza, and the Palestinians were still suffering under brutal Arab despotic rule in those territories. Israel's existance, was, therefore, the "occupation" Arafat was speaking of. It Israel's very existance that the Palestinians see as the "occupation" they want to see ended.

Furthermore, the Arabs were waging war on Israel's existance long before there was ONE Jew in either or Gaza or the West Bank. Israel fought three of six wars within the first 19 years of its existance before there was an Arab people called "Palestinians." Israel was already enduring calls for its destruction and the goal of the Six Day War was to "Push Israel into the sea."

The first initiative was in 1971, not in 1979 as is generally believed. Most scholars take 1979 because that was the first agreement that Israel accepted, and that is because Israel refuses to leave the occupied territories. There have been countless offers from Syria, from Saudi Arabia, from Iraq, from nations outside of the region, but Israel either rejects the offers or so escalates a crisis as to drive the peace feelers away.

Because the offers that are made are meant to destroy Israel demographically and force the Jews to live as Dhimmis (second class citizens) in a Palestinian majority country. You fail to acknowledge the nature of the "offers" of peace. They offer Israel peace only if Israel commits national sucide. Israel was/is right to reject such offers.

The 1971 "initiative" from Anwar Sadat was a based upon Israel leaving the West Bank and Gaza, which Israel. Israel had taken Gaza from Egypt in 1967 and Israel's presence there was to prevent Egypt from staging another attack on Israsel from that area. The last thing Israel was wanted was more Egyptians forces built up in Gaza and basically sitting on Israel's doorstep. Israel held Gaza legally as the result of taking Gaza in a war of self-defense from annhilation that Egypt imposed on Israel. To give Gaza back would have been suicidal on Israel's part ad was rightly rejected.

It's fine if she does not want to give up her land. I won't argue it. But to say the Arabs have been, and still are , trying to destroy Israel is a mistake. The rejectionism is on Israel, not the Arabs.

You are delusional.

In the United nations there is a map that has been hanging there since 2005, that depicts a nation called "Palestine" with no hint of a nation called Israel. This map was readily received by the UN as "future Palestinian nation." Here is a link to that map>>> Map of "Palestine" without Israel It is what the Arab world accepts as the goal of wiping Israel off the map of the world.

It was, in fact, Henry Kissinger who said the US should agree to Israels policy of a "status quo", that is, a rejection of any peace agreement that meant the relinquishing of territory, which was, I think in 1971 or 1972. This rejectionism was a direct cause of the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

It was a wise rejection on Israel's part. As history has proven over and over, every time Israel gives up land or makes concessions for peace, it always ends up causing terrorism and violence against Israel to escalate.

But you can not have your cake and eat it too. That is, you can not turn down peace agreements and then accuse the attempted peacemakers of trying to end your existence!

Israel has been the ONLY one who has ever been serious about peace. You simply don't your history very well.

In 1975 Yasir Arafat stood before the UN and stated, "Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations." He received a standing ovation.

When the Arabs call for "peace" with Israel, it does not mean the same thing as it would mean in the West. "Peace" from the Arab/Muslim standpoint requires that Israel submit to Sharia law. It means Israel comes under the umbrella Islam and beocmes a Muslim nation. The Jews are seen as simply needing to assimilate into the Arab/Islamic world with no country of their own. Either that, or be exterminated out of the Middle east altogether.

As to what I would have Israel do--I said earlier. Either assimilate or liberate. But to assimilate, Israel does what it calls "compromising their unique demographic", and if they liberate, then "we abandon the hopes of a greater Israel". Again, they are trying to have both and gaining neither.

There are no hopes for a "greater Israel." Israel has no territorial aspirations. Israel's presence in the West Bank was made necessary by Arab rejectionism of Israel's existance as evidenced by multiple wars of annihilation meant to facilitate, fulfill and express that rejectionisim.

If Israsel assimilates the Palestinians, it woud demographically destroy Israel.

There is nothing to "liberate" as the Palesitnian refugees are not subjects under Israeli rule/sovereignty. They are not slaves of Israel. The Palestians have been offered their own state three times in the 20th century and each offer was rejected. The Jews agreed to all three offers. In each case it was the Arabs/Palestinians that rejected any possibility of a Palestinian state. They have rejected every attempt to create a Palestinian state next to Israel. Every offer of peace that was not accompanied by the dissolvement of Israel has been rejected.

Israel has no desire to rule the Palesitnians, but Israeli control of the West Bank is necessary due to the terrorism that emanates from there. The Palestinians make a protracted Israeli presence in the West Bank necessary.

I ask you, after forty years, what does Israel expect the occupied Palestinians to do?

They expect the Palestinians to see the futility of terroristic agendas and to give up their desire to facilitate the annihilation of Israel. They expect the Palestinians begin taking responsibility for their own actions and policies.

So, do you think terrorism is a justifiable response on the part of the Palestinians? Your rhetorical question seems to indicate that you do.

[Elchingen]

shilo:

I don't see much in the way conciliation here. You have your perspective and I have mine. Again, what is the point in trying to explain if you don't want to hear it?

Maybe I'll see on another thread somewhere where we actually agree on something.

Replacement theology, since it came up, probably bears some study. I think it is the idea that the Church replaces Israel in God's eyes. The proponents of this belief even consider Old Testament prophecies to be talkling about the Church and not Israel. That is why I disagree with the term.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Apostle Pauls' writing on this. That we who are in Christ who are not by blood the children of Abraham grafted into the vine and seen by God as children of Abraham on account of Christ. To me, this is a spiritual lineage. I don't think God abandoned Israel, but I do think that in His plan for mankind he has made those who are in Him one blood.

This is not the view of replacement theologists. The RCC is famous for advancing that idea, but it obviously is not true.

One would have to have remarkably little faith in Christ to think He had forgotten His chosen people, and even less faith to think that after Israel was given land and identity, that anyone could actually take it back.

It is amazing to me that the pro-Israel crowds voice so much in the way of fear for Israel ever losing something that they say(at the same time) God gave back to them.

If their faith is so strong, why are all of their arguments based up such grandiose fears?

In Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

Again, what is the point in trying to explain if you don't want to hear it?

I am not at all uninterested in "hearing" your point of view. You have as much right to voice yours as I do mine. However, my point of view is based upon facts that you are impotent to refute, but are too prideful to admit are true. Your point of view is based upon misperecptions, and a lack of knowledge with regard to the true history and dynamics of this conflict.

It is amazing to me that the pro-Israel crowds voice so much in the way of fear for Israel ever losing something that they say(at the same time) God gave back to them. If their faith is so strong, why are all of their arguments based up such grandiose fears?

This is what I meant by "misperceptions." You have assigned a value to our position that is simply not true. It is not out of fear that we defend Israel. It is not because we are afraid that Israel is going to lose their Land, becuase they are not.

It is our love for Israel and our respect toward God's covenant toward Israel that we stand against the baseless, false information, lies, and half-truths that are spoken of Israel on a near daily basis in the media and by people like you on these types of forums. Our motivation is an unconditional love for God's chosen people that causes us to stand against the terroristic agenda of the Palestinians and the rampant hypocrisy of the international community toward Israel.

[Elchingen]

shilo:

I guess to me, an unconditional love of Almighty God is enough.

In Christ.