sweetycakes Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 162 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,898 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,149 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/23/1964 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Arthur, YOU my dear "christian" friend brought up Pascal's wager. You want to apply it to me using christianity but you don't want to apply it to yourself using every conceivable religion ever believed. What gives? BTW, in my opinion the only eternal reality is death - the end of being - nothing beyond death. Do you think you could possibly wait until after death before making such assertions.....?? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFP Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 732 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/24/1969 Share Posted March 24, 2008 EXACTLY! I'm not here to be converted. I'm here to understand WHY you guys believe in christianity and how it affects your lives and the lives of people you are around on a daily basis. I believe because once the light finally turned on, I saw things I never understood before. It was like being flooded with a love so great that there was no way to deny it. Because once I made the choice and repented of my past life God himself showed me things I would have never known. I spent alot of my life wondering how ppl could believe in God the way they do, I was like you, an athiest/agnostic. I fought it for a long time because I had been hurt by it in my younger years. I never understood how ppl could claim to hear God, but the reality is they DO! And He helps them in their everyday life. It is for real disEnchanted:>) No one here can force you to believe anything, you can spend your whole life frustrated because you refuse to let your pride down enough to take what God is offering you. But the fact is there's a whole world of stuff out there that you will understand if you ever acceptm his offer. I am not a perfect person...I wish I was, but I still say terrible words when I stub my toe or hit my thumb with a hammer! I still catch myself doing things I wish I wouldn't do. I still smoke, although I really want to quit. I was raised to believe that to be a Christian you had to be perfect...well I'm not:>) But God still shows me wonderful things. Another thing...on this thread is alot of talk about hardened hearts...well, mine has softened. I never knew it was hard before, but looking back it was...harder than it is now anyway:>) My life has been very blessed and in some ways it has been very difficult. Things aren't perfect, but the problems are alot easier to deal with when they come up:>) How it affects those around me I am not sure. I am not a very effective witness because I don't really talk about my belief much. I just live it by loving those around me. Anyway, I didn't come here to try to convert you, because I know it is in God's timing... and I believe He has you in His sights. I just saw your question and thought I'd share with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caughtinside Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/15/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2008 Swinburne, McGrath, D'Souza - 1; Caughtoffside - 0. No way man. Swinburne, McGrath, D'Souza - 0; Caughtinside - ONE MILLION! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 Disenchanted: I hope you don't mind if I ask you again. Does this statement sound logical? "We know very little of our universe. The unknowns far outweigh the knowns. But I do know that there is not an intelligent creator in charge of it all"? I will get into it later, about whether NOT knowing or knowing is MORE logical, but for now, please tell me if you think the above makes logical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. I was an atheist at one time too. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick. Can I ask you what kind of Christian experience you had in the past? Did you consider yourself a dynamic Christian, full of faith, full of a love for God? What happened? God is not a genie who responds at our beckon call and gives us what we want. Too many Christians feel this way though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2008 Dear CaughtOffSide: A one-armed parachutist with a rusty hatchet would prove much more adept in attempting to hack-up my Swinburn/McGrath/D'Souza response than you, even if you come replete with "atheism's" god "Sheer Chance." Why not permit leading "atheist" Antony Flew to respond: "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence & a purpose!." Zowie, a new-age "atheist" with understanding! Even Flew is bewitched, bothered & bewildered by your god "Sheer Chance" to the extent he has become a deist! Have you given a listen to the D'Souza-Hitchens conflab yet? BTW, what might you think of the human race per se? I'd appreciate an outsider's opinion. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 The religion of christianity lacks vital certainty as it's based on ignorance of whether or not the Creator-God exists. Not based on ignorance at all. It's based on a knowing. Just because you don't accept the evidence, doesn't mean it's not evidence. I don't believe in evolution but beleive that same evidence supports the creation model. There are countless peices of evidence that point to a God, not to mention personal experiences, medical miracles. The 'mysteries' of life can pretty much all be answered by Christianity. Read A Massive Conspiracy theory and tell me how humans pulled all of this off without a God. You can say it's 'ignorance' all you want, but it's simply not true. Why not take the stance "definitely NO god" as opposed to "definitely MY god." How is that any different with respect to "concrete evidence?" For starters if the Bible is true and God exists, there is a hell. Is that not worth the time of examing all of the evidence with an open heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 The thread has gone off topic somewhat, which I really don't mind, but I want to pose the original question again. The Bible speaks of 'hard heartedness' You don't have to answer whether or not you are hard hearted toward a belief in God, just ask yourself. You know in your own heart what the answer is. I'm not really asking for admissions here. The Bible mentions this term, because I believe it to be a very valid trait and I would just ask atheists/agnostics to examine themselves. Some I do feel are hard hearted, although I'm not capable of examining the heart of anyone. But when they claim the 'been there, done that" to Christianity it seems they are no longer willing to try it again. It seems like their heart has been hardened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caughtinside Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/15/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2008 Dear CaughtOffSide: A one-armed parachutist with a rusty hatchet would prove much more adept in attempting to hack-up my Swinburn/McGrath/D'Souza response than you, even if you come replete with "atheism's" god "Sheer Chance." Why not permit leading "atheist" Antony Flew to respond: "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence & a purpose!." Zowie, a new-age "atheist" with understanding! Even Flew is bewitched, bothered & bewildered by your god "Sheer Chance" to the extent he has become a deist! Have you given a listen to the D'Souza-Hitchens conflab yet? BTW, what might you think of the human race per se? I'd appreciate an outsider's opinion. Arthur, I think you have me confused with someone else. For starters, I agree with Flew. It could be. I'm agnostic and I'm happy to entertain the possibilty that there's something out there. I have my doubts but I sure don't know, and I never claimed to. As for the human race? I'm pretty ambivalent about it, if that's what you're looking for. By the way, I was hoping you'd recognize the old child's game. Your proper response was supposed to be: Caughtinside (or -OffSide, whatever) - 0; Swinburne/McGrath/D'Souza - infinity! See, and then you would've won. Ease up a bit, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2008 "Agnostic," I can buy altho the word itself comes from the Greek, "lacking in understanding." Merci, et au revoir. Now I'm off to the revamped StarBucks for a small carmel latte. Meet me there. It's on yours truly. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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