Anti-Zionist Jews

[nebula]

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

Right . . . that's why the news media is painting the Palestinians as innocent victims while the Israelis are the aggressors.

Sorry, it doesn't work this way.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Neturei Karta are not simply ideologically opposed to Zionism as a matter of principle. If that is where it ended, that would be one thing.

The Neturei Karta openly declare even on the site that KatyAnn references, that they wish to see the Palestinians gain complete sovereignty over the nation of Israel, and create a Palestinian state in place of Israel. According to the NK site, IF the Palestinians allow some Jews to live there as Palestinian citizens, that is fine, but that is, of course, totally up to them.

The Neturei Karta are rejected by mainline Orthodox Judaism, and mainline Orthodox Jewish organizations in both the US, Israel and other parts of the world. They are considered by mainline Judaism as fringe element. The NK do not rely on the OT but almost exlclusively on the Talmud as opposed to mainline Orthodox Judaism which heavily reliles on OT (Tenach) as their source of authority, in addition to the Talmudic writings.

The key to understanding this heretical group is not in what they say, but in what they do. The Neturei Karta actively support the destruction of Israel.

Neturei Karta Rabbi, Moshe Hirsch served on Arafat's cabinet as a paid employee. Here is a link to the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies showing the money that was paid to Moshe Hirsch while he worked for Arafat.

The Neturei Karta supported and attended the Holocaust denial seminar led by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

They regularly join Palestinian rallies giving their support for the complete destruction of Israel. The fact that this can only be accomplished by killing the Jews that live there (genocide) seems to get lost on these cockroaches and those that support them.

The Neturei Karta live under the delusion that they will be rewarded by the Palestinians by being allowed to live as Jewish citizens in a newly formed Palestinian state after Israel is abolished. They apparently do not pay any attention to the Muslim concept of dhimmitude which basically emasculates any observance of Judaism or Christianity in Muslim countries. One only need to look at how Palestinian Christians are treated and brutalized by Hamas and Fatah in Gaza and Bethlehem to get an idea what life would be like for nonMuslims in a Muslim country called Palestine.

The truth is that the Bible teaches that Jesus is Zionist. When he returns it is to save Israel from the very destruction that Neturei Karta would love to see happen. Jesus loves Israel. It is the apple of His eye.

Anti-Semitism/Anti-Zionism = anti-Christ.

[Scarletprayers]

I never take anyone's word for anything without looking it up for myself. In order to find out what the Nuterei Karta believe I went to their websits.

Here is the link in case anyone else would like to check them out for themselves.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

And you found what????? that Shiloh wasn't telling the truth or something????

Did I say that? Do you have an objection to fact checking? If so, why?

Depends on who is doing it and why.

[Scarletprayers]

Well now I've been properly chastised!

[nebula]

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

KatyAnn -

I am wondering what you make of this message Shiloh posted; or rather, what you consider regarding the prophecy:

God promises in Ezekiel 36 and 37 that the Jews would return to the Land in unbelief and that AFTER they return to the Land, God will purify them and give them a new heart.

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

(Ezekiel 36:23-27)

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

(Ezekiel 37:11-14)

In both passages, Israel's spiritual rebirth occurs AFTER they return to the Land and are restored physically.

Likewise, how do you regard this one?

God also prophesies that when the Jewish people return to the Land, they will never leave it again.

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

(Amos 9:14-15)

The above is not talking about the return from Babylon, for it says that they will never be pulled up from the Land. Clearly after final Roman victory of 135 AD over Bar Kochba and the expulsion of the Jewish people from the Land, it is clear that this prophecy was not fulfilled after the return of Babylon, but was still future. It is being fufilled today. Israel is stronger today than at any time in its history since the days of King David. This the first time in well over 2,000 years, that the Jewish people are living in their Land and are not being ruled over by another empire.

The ONLY explanation for the Land of Israel is the hand of God. There are too many miraculous victories in battle where Israel was facing what the world saw as sure defeat/annihilation, only to shock the internation community every time by not only winning, but winning big in every conflict.

No human endeavor can take the credit for Israel's existence today in the Land. Not even Zionism rightly deserves the credit. Only the Lord Himself, the One who owns the Land itself, can take the credit for the return of His people to their Land.

[nebula]

Sorry, but there is something else I wanted to clarify with this:

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

You mean when the Messiah comes back again - right?

[stan4257]

It is very tragic that certain "Christians" would openly throw their support behind such human filth, but then no one said that hating Israel makes anyone a rationally thinking person.

He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree that they believe much of what you say. They certainly do state that they would love to see the destruction of Israel. I can't agree to that. I would like a peaceful solution to be found.

But, the above statement is misleading to what they have to say on their site. They say that God will bring them out of exile when Messiah comes.

KatyAnn, I am looking what at the Neturei Karta DO and not what they SAY. I guess you just don't get it.

The Neturei Karta align themselves with the most vicious, anti-Semitic, violent. bloodthirsty, terrorist groups in the region. They went to Iran to support the Iranian Presdent who says Israel should be wiped off the map. They carry Palestinian flags. They claim to want a "peaceful" solution, but thier actions demonstrate that they would welcome a violent overthrow of Israel even if it means the destruction not only of the nation but the extermination of their people. That is what they communicate by aligning and allying themselves with terrorists.

People are known by the company they keep. The Neturei Karta want to ally themselves with terrorists, then they should be considered as enemies of the state dealt with appropirately.

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will

The problem with the above is that it misses the obvious history of modern Israel. Modern Israel was not rebirthed by the Jewish people or the Zionists, not by a longshot. The Jewish people outside Europe in the 1940s did not even have the power to convince the allies to bomb the railroad tracks leading to the oil factories and gas chambers. They could not prevent the slaughter of 6 Million of their own people. They certainly did not have the power in and of themselves to create a nation.

The Jewish people left to their own, would have simply been reabsorbed back into the anti-Semitism of Europe. Those in pre-Israel Palestine would have been left to the mercy of the surrounding Arab nations. Little is spoken of the post WWII anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews that still took place in Europe, usually by pockets of fromer nazi soldiers still loyal to Hitler and the SS.

God moved upon the nations just as he did thousands of years ago in Persia to bring about events that would transpire in the rebirth of the nation of Israel. While many countries voted for the creation of Israel in 1947, it is common knowledge that no one really believed it would last. In fact, there is concern today that had anyone dreamed that Israel would be where it is today, those who voted for Israel would have either voted against it, or abstained.

There is no way, when examining the history of modern Israel given the overwhelming odds Israel faced even just one day after declaring nationhood, that its existance can be ultmately attributed Zionists or any human endeavor.

There is a reason that the Neturei Karta are repudiated by mainline Judaism their "Torah obserance" is a smokescreen for hate. No "Torah true" Jew would have gone to Iran's holocaust denial seminar, much less buddied up with the despotic, psychopathic Iranian president. No "Torah true" Jew would work actively with those who want to bring down Israel in a violent upheaval.

I don't care what their website "says." Cults always put on a pleasing "public face," but when you get into the innerworkings you discover that their public image is not at an accurate repsresentation of what they truly believe and practice.

One even look at other notorious anti-Zionist Jews like Michael Lerner and Zalman Schacter. Schacter was a sexual pervert who encouraged perversion in little boys and Lerner was a hippie and a drug addict. Lerner lied about having rabbinical creditionals despite no Jewish ordaining authority in the US, Canada, Europe or Israel having any records of his ordination.

In the Bible, every prophecy about Israel's return in the Last days precedes the coming of the Messiah. There is not ONE biblical prophecy that says, "the Jews must first accept the Messiah before they are allowed to return to the Land. There is not ONE biblical prophecy that says, "The Messiah will bring the Jews to the Land." Everything the prophets write about from Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, and Zechariah (just to name a few) show the same pattern:

• The Jews return to the Land in unbelief
  
  
• The Land prospers in their hands
  
  
• The nation begins the process of restoration
  
  
• The Jews find the Messiah and are spiritualy restored AFTER they return to the Land.
  

First the physical restoration, then spiritual restoration follows. There is NOTHING in the Bible that pictures Israel's restoration in any other fashion.

Those who teach that Jews must first embrace the Messiah before Israel can be reborn are simply penciling in their own notions and ideas which do NOT authentic biblical teaching.

[Rick-Parker]

I never take anyone's word for anything without looking it up for myself. In order to find out what the Nuterei Karta believe I went to their websits.

Here is the link in case anyone else would like to check them out for themselves.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

And you found what????? that Shiloh wasn't telling the truth or something????

Did I say that? Do you have an objection to fact checking? If so, why?

Depends on who is doing it and why.

Pardon my interruption, but, I think that SP was expecting a thumbs up or thumbs down when you said that you did your own research. But, I may be wrong. I know that I thought that.

edit: I'm a little late to give my 2 cents. Sorry

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess you people just want to fight. I said I agree with your view on these people.

You said my remarks were misleading with regard to what they say on their site. My point was simply that I am judging their actions not their words. Ultimately, people live out what they believe, and Neturei Karta is no exception. By their actions, and their alliances, we see their true colors.

It is the website that is misleading.

Secondly, the rest of my response pertained to what you quoted from their website. I was more or less responding to their inaccurate and unJewish understanding of the Scriptures.

This has got to be the most unreasonable and argumentative bunch of Christians I have ever encountered.

Did someone put a gun to your head and tell you that you HAVE to respond to threads that support Israel? Every thread that voices support for Israel finds you making digs at Israel, taking potshots and trying to discredit Israel's existance. You voluntarily enter these threads because you want to argue, and when you can't refute biblical truth, you complain that we are soooo argumentative or some other nonsense.

The only threads you participate in are ones with a political issue to debate, so it is pretty hypocritial to complain about being argumentative.

The truth is, we are better at defending Israel than you or ANYONE so far has ever been at discrediting Israel's existance since I joined this board in August of '03. So, you can save yourself some headaches and just stop trying to discredit Israel's existance, or we can continue this same confrontation over and over again everytime you seek to spread your lies, misinformation, history revisionism and silly conspiracy theories about Israel. It all depends on you.