Anti-Zionist Jews

[eric]

Well Katy Ann, as Joe Friday would say, :just the facts ma'am:

[Elchingen]

shiloh:

I gotta say, you are pretty hot-blooded. If I didn't know better, you seem to be annoyed that Katy-ann looked into it, rather than grateful that someone has your back on this--which she said she did. And when you get too flustered to respond with anything else, you resort to the typical character assasination. If you don't want people opposed to your views to comment, try not posting those comments in the first place. You know, an ounce of prevention....

I checked it out because I don't trust none but the Spirit and Jesus Christ to tell me what's up. Be offended if you like.

This group, which by your estimate, Shiloh, numbers "500", sounds from your mouth like the SS in yamuka's marching to lay waste. However, they state clearly that they rely on the Torah throughout their declarations. They don't sound like blood-thirsty terrorists, anyway. They sound like faithful Israelites who feel that their identity has been hijacked.

And then you go on to clarify that it's not what they SAY, but what they DO!

But "what they DO", as far as you know, is according to a second hand, biased source, one that is interested in painting a bad picture of the group so as to undermine them. If they are so much on the fringe, why are you getting so upset over them? Or are you just fanning your own flames of distrust and hatred?

The problem, as I see it, is that you folks get yourselves all worked up on these message boards over anything that will make your frantic fingers type faster. It is remarkable the level of time and attention that one must pay in order to be regularly involved in discussions like this. Moreover, it is a ceaseless drain on the spirit to be defending and parrying, and dodging your way through opposition, much of which you yourself set up by your rash and less-than-objective statements.

Your statements about Iran's president, case in point, are an example of this--based on the news media's interpretation and translation. I've read the actual transcripts about the so-called "holocaust denial" and the "wipe out Israel" lines, and both were gratuitously tampered with in order for them to sound as out-landish as they do. The man has a regular blog. You should check it sometime. Just google-- Iran president blog.

Check out: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Like I said, I check out everything if I can, but especially the really outlandish stuff.

BTW, it would nice to read something that isn't so much fear-mongering out of the "pro-Zionist" crowd.

In Christ.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Elchingen

[Guest shiloh357]

I gotta say, you are pretty hot-blooded. If I didn't know better, you seem to be annoyed that Katy-ann looked into it, rather than grateful that someone has your back on this--which she said she did.

No, I simply reflect a level of honesty that you are unwilling to face up to.

If you don't want people opposed to your views to comment, try not posting those comments in the first place. You know, an ounce of prevention....

I never said that I don't want anyone responding to my point of view. KatyAnn was the one complaining about responses, not me. All I said was, if she doesn't want to argue about it, then don't enter into threads that support Israel with her digs and potshots at Israel.

I checked it out because I don't trust none but the Spirit and Jesus Christ to tell me what's up. Be offended if you like.

If you were listening to Jesus, He would lead you to be support Israel, because He does. I will condede that you are being led by "A" spirit, though.

This group, which by your estimate, Shiloh, numbers "500", sounds from your mouth like the SS in yamuka's marching to lay waste.

Actually, I did not say the number 500. The article says they number at 5,000. Perhaps you should invest in glasses, or perhaps some classes in reading comprehension.

However, they state clearly that they rely on the Torah throughout their declarations. They don't sound like blood-thirsty terrorists, anyway. They sound like faithful Israelites who feel that their identity has been hijacked.

That is faulty logic. So what you are saying is that of the 13,000,000 million Jews worldwide, 12,995,000 "hijacked" the Jewish faith? I am sorry, but no THINKING person would advance or believe such rubbish.

But "what they DO", as far as you know, is according to a second hand, biased source, one that is interested in painting a bad picture of the group so as to undermine them.

No, not really. It is undeniable, historic fact that one of the chief Rabbis of Neturei Karta supported Arafat and served on the "cabinet" of a known international terrorist. They are not secretive about their desire to live in a "Palestine" absent of the state of Israel and they have chosen to ally themselves with known terrorist entities and stand in solidarity with the Palestinian agenda to destroy Israel. That is all fact, not "second hand" information. It is historic, documented fact that the Neturei Karta leadership attended and supported the Iranian president's holocaust denial seminar, which was really just a justification for his desire to see Israel wiped out. Again, they stood in solidarity with him in that endeavor.

If they are so much on the fringe, why are you getting so upset over them? Or are you just fanning your own flames of distrust and hatred?

I brough the issue up since some people around here like to cite "anti-Zionist" Jews as justification for hating Israel. I am simply demonstrating that these anti-Zionist Jews are a fringe and should be seen authorities in matter of Jewish faith and practice particularly as it relates to Israel. They are pretty much disowned by Orthodox Judaism, but because they hate Israel, people like you are willing to over look that very important fact.

The problem, as I see it, is that you folks get yourselves all worked up on these message boards over anything that will make your frantic fingers type faster. It is remarkable the level of time and attention that one must pay in order to be regularly involved in discussions like this. Moreover, it is a ceaseless drain on the spirit to be defending and parrying, and dodging your way through opposition, much of which you yourself set up by your rash and less-than-objective statements.

Actually, defending Israel is not a drain at all. It is a passion. It's easy because the pro-Israel position is biblical. God is a Zionist. Jesus is a Zionist. The Holy Spirit is a Zionist. We Christian Zionists are in good Company. Like I said, I am here to defend Israel. If you don't like our position, you never have to come to these threads again, or you can even find an anti-Zionist Christian board. But as long as you are here, and you want to take an anti-Zionist position, I will be here to counter you. It all depends on you.

It may be a drain on YOU to come over here and debate the issue, but I never get tired of defending and standing for Israel. I was made for this very thing. I am built for it. I take the Bible's position on who the Jewish people are, and to whom the Land of Israel belongs. I also take the biblical position that God has been in the process of restoring Israel to the Land.

The conflict is the product of any oppression on Israel's part, but the intolerant Islamic ideology that is diametrically opposed to the Jews returning to their Land and forming God's nation on earth. God has unbreakable, eternal, blood covenant. The conflict rages because man, in an attempt to break God's covenant with Israel is only succeeding in breaking himself against it.

Your statements about Iran's president, case in point, are an example of this--based on the news media's interpretation and translation.

Yeah, I have heard all of that before. It just amounts to backpeddling, and trying to save face on his part. He said what He said in unambiguous language no amount of linguistic gymnatics or revisionism will change that. His message was heard loud and clear by everyone in the world. You can spare me your lies and misinformation.

[Guest]

The problem, as I see it, is that you folks get yourselves all worked up on these message boards over anything that will make your frantic fingers type faster

You Can See My Frantic Little Fingers Through My Monitor

The House Of Faith

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" Ephesians 4:32

And The World Of Dead Men Walking

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" Matthew 5:44

Will All Met Together At Old Jerusalem Town

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Zechariah 14:3-4

So Pray For Hopeless Sinner Man

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16

And Pray For The Son Of Man

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee" Psalms 122:6

Come Quickly LORD

Come Quickly

Amen

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Ant-Zionism is partly to blame for the deaths of 6 Million Jews in Hitler's Holocaust.

Before the Neturei Karta, there was another anti-Zionist Jewish sect called the "Agudah." The Agudah was formed as early as the 1920's to combat Zionism and to oppose the creation of a Jewish state. The modern Sephardic twin to Agudah is known in Israel as the Shas party. Recently, the Agudah changed its name to the "Torah Judaism Party" and no name is less deserved for any Jewish group than this one. They are ANYTHING but "Torah Judaism."

The Agudah played a major part in preventing Jews from leaving Europe and moving to pre-Israel Palestine. The Agudist Rabbis told the Jews in Europe that the Zionists were insane and that Jews were better off in Germany, Poland, Hungary, and anywhere else in Europe.

The Jews who listened to the anti-Zionist cockroaches were among those who ended up being murdered in Hitler's gas chambers and cremated in his ovens. Anti-Zionism contrubuted substantially to the Jewish casualty/fatality rates during the Holocaust.

The Agudist (Torah Judaism) leaders/Rabbis are still part of that sector of the Israeli government that favors cowardly retreats from Jewish land, and the Agudists hold this position as long as they continue to receive payoffs in the form of government subsidies for their shady anti-Zionist, religious institutions.

The enemy within the gate is far more dangerous than the enemy outside. Anti-Zionism is as bad, if not worse than nazism. When expressed by Jews, anti-Zionism is self-hatred. When expressed by nonJews, it is racism and just all round bigotry.

Anti-Zionism is nothing but anti-Semitism expressed on a more global scale. As was indicted in a different thread, anti-Semitism is the denial of equal rights to Jews within a given community. Anti-Zionism is the denial of Israel the right to exist and operate as equal member of the community nations. It is all the same. It is nothing but hatred of Jews no matter who expresses it.

Furthermore, anti-Zionism is a declaration of a lack of belief in the truth of Scripture. Christian and Jewish anti-Zionist try to rip God out of the picture where the restoration of Israel is concerned. It ignores the fact that the restoration of Israel means that God's hand is still upon the Jewish nation and those Chrisitians who believe the satanic heresy that the Church is the true Israel must, out of theological necessity, oppose the modern restoration of Israel as an act of God. Their theology cannot make room for the truth, and since their pride will not allow them to embrace biblical truth, they must resort to anti-Semitic doctrines like Replacement Theology to protect their midguided theological morass.

Anti-Zionism is a disease; the truth of Scripture is the cure.

[Guest]

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." Joel 2:32

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city."

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

"And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:"

"But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." Zechariah 14:1-9

Anti-Zionism is a disease; the truth of Scripture is the cure.

The Truth Of Scripture

Tick

But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.

So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.

This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

Psalms 102:12-18

Tock

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Corinthians 3:15-16

Tick

Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isaiah 43:5-6

Tock

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 36:24-28

Come Quickly LORD Jesus Come Quickly

Get Ready To Ride

"And The LORD My God Shall Come, And All The Saints With Thee"

Zechariah 14:15

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Elchingen]

I gotta say, you are pretty hot-blooded. If I didn't know better, you seem to be annoyed that Katy-ann looked into it, rather than grateful that someone has your back on this--which she said she did.

No, I simply reflect a level of honesty that you are unwilling to face up to.

If you don't want people opposed to your views to comment, try not posting those comments in the first place. You know, an ounce of prevention....

I never said that I don't want anyone responding to my point of view. KatyAnn was the one complaining about responses, not me. All I said was, if she doesn't want to argue about it, then don't enter into threads that support Israel with her digs and potshots at Israel.

I checked it out because I don't trust none but the Spirit and Jesus Christ to tell me what's up. Be offended if you like.

If you were listening to Jesus, He would lead you to be support Israel, because He does. I will condede that you are being led by "A" spirit, though.

This group, which by your estimate, Shiloh, numbers "500", sounds from your mouth like the SS in yamuka's marching to lay waste.

Actually, I did not say the number 500. The article says they number at 5,000. Perhaps you should invest in glasses, or perhaps some classes in reading comprehension.

However, they state clearly that they rely on the Torah throughout their declarations. They don't sound like blood-thirsty terrorists, anyway. They sound like faithful Israelites who feel that their identity has been hijacked.

That is faulty logic. So what you are saying is that of the 13,000,000 million Jews worldwide, 12,995,000 "hijacked" the Jewish faith? I am sorry, but no THINKING person would advance or believe such rubbish.

But "what they DO", as far as you know, is according to a second hand, biased source, one that is interested in painting a bad picture of the group so as to undermine them.

No, not really. It is undeniable, historic fact that one of the chief Rabbis of Neturei Karta supported Arafat and served on the "cabinet" of a known international terrorist. They are not secretive about their desire to live in a "Palestine" absent of the state of Israel and they have chosen to ally themselves with known terrorist entities and stand in solidarity with the Palestinian agenda to destroy Israel. That is all fact, not "second hand" information. It is historic, documented fact that the Neturei Karta leadership attended and supported the Iranian president's holocaust denial seminar, which was really just a justification for his desire to see Israel wiped out. Again, they stood in solidarity with him in that endeavor.

If they are so much on the fringe, why are you getting so upset over them? Or are you just fanning your own flames of distrust and hatred?

I brough the issue up since some people around here like to cite "anti-Zionist" Jews as justification for hating Israel. I am simply demonstrating that these anti-Zionist Jews are a fringe and should be seen authorities in matter of Jewish faith and practice particularly as it relates to Israel. They are pretty much disowned by Orthodox Judaism, but because they hate Israel, people like you are willing to over look that very important fact.

The problem, as I see it, is that you folks get yourselves all worked up on these message boards over anything that will make your frantic fingers type faster. It is remarkable the level of time and attention that one must pay in order to be regularly involved in discussions like this. Moreover, it is a ceaseless drain on the spirit to be defending and parrying, and dodging your way through opposition, much of which you yourself set up by your rash and less-than-objective statements.

Actually, defending Israel is not a drain at all. It is a passion. It's easy because the pro-Israel position is biblical. God is a Zionist. Jesus is a Zionist. The Holy Spirit is a Zionist. We Christian Zionists are in good Company. Like I said, I am here to defend Israel. If you don't like our position, you never have to come to these threads again, or you can even find an anti-Zionist Christian board. But as long as you are here, and you want to take an anti-Zionist position, I will be here to counter you. It all depends on you.

It may be a drain on YOU to come over here and debate the issue, but I never get tired of defending and standing for Israel. I was made for this very thing. I am built for it. I take the Bible's position on who the Jewish people are, and to whom the Land of Israel belongs. I also take the biblical position that God has been in the process of restoring Israel to the Land.

The conflict is the product of any oppression on Israel's part, but the intolerant Islamic ideology that is diametrically opposed to the Jews returning to their Land and forming God's nation on earth. God has unbreakable, eternal, blood covenant. The conflict rages because man, in an attempt to break God's covenant with Israel is only succeeding in breaking himself against it.

Your statements about Iran's president, case in point, are an example of this--based on the news media's interpretation and translation.

Yeah, I have heard all of that before. It just amounts to backpeddling, and trying to save face on his part. He said what He said in unambiguous language no amount of linguistic gymnatics or revisionism will change that. His message was heard loud and clear by everyone in the world. You can spare me your lies and misinformation.

1. It's a bit extreme to accuse people of being possessed, Shiloh. Temper check, please.

2. I believe you said, in reference to the number 5,000, that it is probably one "zero" less.

3. I'm not defending the group, I'm telling you the impression I got from their website. I obviously don't take them to be representative of every Israelite in the world--nor did I infer such. I said they feel that the "identity", that is, "Nation of Israel", has been hijacked, not they are the sole representatives thereof. Some careful reading here. And as the article I linked to stated, and you obviously did not read it, THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST DENIAL SEMINAR. To the contrary, the Iranian president is saying that the horror of the holocaust has been capitalized upon and used to the detriment of others.(A shame you didn't actually read it--which was the direct words the "news" took up and butchered-NOT back-peddling).

4. I have no issue with the Israeli nation, nor it's people. It is the policies of it's gov't I disagree with. But then, an open-minded person who can appreciate the world and it's multifaceted geopolitical diversity would readily understand and appreciate that--you are clearly not one of them. You are stuck in a trench throwing barbs at anyone who comes too close to your fox hole.

You don't seen other than "A" spirit in me, and I see NONE of "THE" spirit in you.

But I love you anyway.

God bless.

In Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

1. It's a bit extreme to accuse people of being possessed, Shiloh. Temper check, please.

I didn't accuse anyone of being "possessed." I guess accuracy is not one of your strong points.

2. I believe you said, in reference to the number 5,000, that it is probably one "zero" less.

I believe you are wrong, as the article in OP cites the number as 5,000. I did not challenge their count.

3. I'm not defending the group, I'm telling you the impression I got from their website.

And I am telling you that their actions, activities and socio-political relationships are a far more accurate barometer of what they stand for. All cults and heretics put on their best face in public. It is when you get in on the inside that you find out what they are.

I obviously don't take them to be representative of every Israelite in the world--nor did I infer such. I said they feel that the "identity", that is, "Nation of Israel", has been hijacked, not they are the sole representatives thereof. Some careful reading here.

It would be one thing for the majority of Jews to say that a certain radical, minority sect is trying to hijack "Jewish" or "Israeli" idenity. That would be understandable. That is what everyone says about Muslim terrorists. They claim that they are minority that is trying to hijack the Muslim religion. Funny, how when it is Jews who are plugged into the equation the same argument suddenly stands on its head, and it is the majority (who oppose terrorism and truly seek peace with the Palestinians) are the ones accused of "hijacking" Israeli identity, and those who ally themselves with terrorists for Israel's desctruction are considered the "true" Jews. I find that litte bit of hypocrisy rather telling.

And as the article I linked to stated, and you obviously did not read it, THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST DENIAL SEMINAR. To the contrary, the Iranian president is saying that the horror of the holocaust has been capitalized upon and used to the detriment of others.(A shame you didn't actually read it--which was the direct words the "news" took up and butchered-NOT back-peddling).

It's a shame you don't actually pay attention to the news. Even new outlets that are not friendly to Israel reported accurately what the Iranian president has said. For Example:

CNN.com - Iranian Leader: "Holocaust is A Myth"

USATODAY.com - Iranian's Holocaust Denial Advances Another Agenda

The Iranian Threat: Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism

Even Iranian academics who live in Iran, Canada and the US recognized that the conference was a Holocaust denial:

Letter by Iranian academics, writers & artists on the Tehran conference on Holocaust denial

And this site also tells the truth:

Center for Iranian Studies: WHAT IS BEHIND IRAN'S ADVOCACY OF HOLOCAUST DENIAL?

It is the policies of it's gov't I disagree with. But then, an open-minded person who can appreciate the world and it's multifaceted geopolitical diversity would readily understand and appreciate that--you are clearly not one of them. You are stuck in a trench throwing barbs at anyone who comes too close to your fox hole.

I'm just too honest for your taste. Israel has policies I disagree with as well. However, any wrong decisions and policies that Israel enacts would never have been made in the first place were Israel not under constant threat from terrorism, wars threats of war, calls for its annihilation, and crushing pressure from the internations community to commit national sucide.

Israel has no polices that were created or enacted out of anything but a sincere desire for self-defense. The hardships and pain that the Palestinians face are the result their failed polices of terrorism. Their plight cannot be seen in the vacuum of simply condemning Israel's actions while refusing to be honest about the Palestinian policies of terrorism and murder that precipitated Israel's responses, and which make such responses necessary.

Furthermore, the problem with your kind is that you want to view this as a conflict between the Palestinians and Israel as if Israel is the mean ol' bully of the Middle east. The truth is that this is a conflict consisting of 1 Jewish nation of 5 Million Jews vs. some 21 Arab States consisting of nearlly 600 Million Arabs. All 21 of these Arab nations are united along with hundreds of millions more nonArab Muslims in their singular goal to destroy the nation of Israel. Suddenly the number rises to nearly 1 Billion.

The Palestinians are tools in the hands of the Arab world. They are a fifth column, forced to remain refugees and live in a condition that was created by the Arab goal to wipe out Israel. The Arabs care nothing for the Paletsinians. They created the refugee crisis, but have found enough gullible people who will believe the revisionsist history which blames Israel for the problem.

The truth is that people like you don't care for the Palestinians except when you can use them to smear Israel. The Palestinians are regularly brutalized and mistreated by their leaders in Hamas and Fatah, and the enemies of Israel are silent. There are no special sessions of the UN Security council when Hamas abuses Palestinian Christians, or when Palestinian children are killed by their own as useful cannon fodder and regularly used as propaganda tools. Palestinians in Arafat's day were shot dead in the street without trial as "collaborators" with Israel if they dared to question terrorism. Again, no one cared. For 19 years when these same people were brutalized by the Jordanians and the Egyptians and no one cared, no complained their refugee situation, and there were calls for a Palestinian state. I can go on and on about how the Arabs treat the Palestinians and how the Palestinian brutalize one another. People like you don't complain about their "plight" until it is something you think you can pin on Israel.

Furthermore, anything good Israel does for the Palestinians, you attempt to minimize or ignore. Israel has done more for the Palestinians than any of the Arab nations and anyone else that pretends to give a flip about the Palestinians "plight." Israel has done an immense amount of good for the Palestinians, more than the Palestinians deserve and more than Israel was obligated to do, only to have every kindness repaid to them with more terrorism and more dead Jews on the street. You your kind prefer to ignore that fact. It is quite tiring to see people like you attempt to mask your hate for Israel with a fake love or concern for the Palestinians.

Honestly, that type of selective compassion demonstrates the type of dishonesty with which you and those like you, approach this conflict. As long as you continue in it, you really have nothing to contribute that has any intellectual, moral or spiritual value.