End times

[Guest yod]

Actually i'm not misapplying it to the gentiles, i'm righly applying it to all who have had the circumcision of the heart. The same thing inwardly happens to both the Jew (after the flesh), and the Gentile (after the flesh).

the verse in question has nothing to do with gentiles. Period.

If you want to make an analogy, fine. I'm just pointing out that your interpretation that this verse make a gentile a "true jew" is in error.

Actually to be scripturally accurate circumcison was given as a sign of the righteousness of faith.

If your supposition were so, then circumcision of the flesh would still be required.

The circumcision of the flesh given to Israel is still a sign of the land covenant God made with the decendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Almost every jew in history received that sign before they were 2 weeks old. How could they know what righteousness was at that age?

I dont assume that God's had has been withdrawn from Israel. I have not made any statments of the kind. Just because I dont walk with you in your interpertation of the verse, you make these accusations. Please show me where I have made such a statement and I will gladly retract it and ask for forgiveness.

The OP is making that assumption and Jack White supports it based on a misinterpretation of Romans 2:29 and you are supporting that misinterpretation. How am I supposed to know you don't also support the same conclusions those 2 have reached when you are debating in agreement with their erroronous interpretation/application?

[Massorite]

quote from Jack_White May 14 2008,

Wow! That is an awesome point! I absolutely agree with you! Why would God specifically choose Jews when Paul talks about the true Jew being those who are Jews inwardly and that circumcision is no longer circumcision of the flesh but of the heart! Romans 2:28-29.

The premise is already flawed since Paul was speaking only about the jewish people being who God called them to be in that verse you quoted. It has absolutely nothing to do with gentiles becoming jews.

That fact is easy to see if you look at the context of why that was said...and to whom. A good method for determining context is to read 3 verses before and after anytime you study a particular scripture. In this case, Paul is speaking to jews only...unless you know of any gentiles who were circumcised?

Why would God and Jesus revert back to the people that rejected Jesus at the first coming, and those few that did reject him are part of the spiritual family of God?

that is the wrong question.

"Why would God break His Word to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?" is the question you should be asking. The answer is that He simply did not.

And by the way, according to Peter in Acts 4 it was the gentiles who killed Yeshua in collusion with the leaders of the people. And anytime you read the word "jew" you should understand that it has multiple meanings (like many english words) and depending on the context of usage it can mean:

1. A person from the tribe of Judah.

2. A political leader of the southern Kingdom known as "Judah"

3. Any person within all the tribes of Israel. This happened because the blessing of the first-born was passed over Rueben, Simeon, & Levi to the 4th son, Judah. You can read why in Genesis 49 with verse 9 making Judah the leader of his brethren.

A close friend recommended this website to me.

The bible explains itself quite well if you can accept that God knows what He is saying and how to say it.

I recommend that we spend time studying the scriptures instead of any website or commentary.

You gave some very good advise Yod. Why can't we take God at His word?

[Guest yod]

'ruck1b' date='May 15 2008, 02:50 PM'

Do you defend the Body of Christ with such fervor? Do you speak with such distain when people dismiss our Lords Bride?

I am biased for biblical truth. I apologize if that hurts anyone but faithful are the bruises of a friend.

Israel is a manifestation of the Kingdom of God. There is no "Body of Christ" apart from Israel. The word "church" has been redefined post-biblically to mean something separate but that is not found in any quotes from the bible. The proper definition of "church" is The faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are added to them Any other definition is just wrong and misses the point of the entire bible.

The jewish people are the natural branches of "the Body" which I am defending. The Lord's Bride, according to the Word of God, is New Jerusalem and that is the same Kingdom promised to the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are joined to them.

I understand that you have always been told that the Bride is the church and came by the greek perspective honestly.....but that is not found in the Bible anywhere. That is an invention of post-biblical european theologians.

God made a promise to Israel (the jews) and for the sake of their Fathers; Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and He will keep it.

We are part of their covenants...or we are not in the Kingdom at all.

To be a righteous man in the Kingdom is to be a righteous man. This is what the Lord requires of all His people, jew or gentile.

however, you will find no place in the bible where a jew can become a gentile or vice versa though there are many places where a gentile can be joined to the tribes of Israel with complete equality of purpose while retaining a distinction. Ruth, Rehab, and Caleb are good examples.

But to be a jew is something else altogether....to be a "jew" means you are a descendant of those Patriarchs whom the Lord promised the land of Israel to OR that you have undergone a conversion ceremony to become a jew. So Paul is speaking only to that group of people when he tells them that to be a "true jew" means you are a descendant of the Patriarchs, observant of God's instruction (Torah) and have also been circumcised in the heart.

[EricH]

Israel is a manifestation of the Kingdom of God. There is no "Body of Christ" apart from Israel. The word "church" has been redefined post-biblically to mean something separate but that is not found in any quotes from the bible. The proper definition of "church" is The faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are added to them Any other definition is just wrong and misses the point of the entire bible.

The jewish people are the natural branches of "the Body" which I am defending. The Lord's Bride, according to the Word of God, is New Jerusalem and that is the same Kingdom promised to the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are joined to them.

I would agree. There has always been a faithful remanant of Israel who are obedient to God. It is to that remnant that the Gentiles have been grafted and it is that remnant of both Jews and Gentiles that make up the body of Christ. This is called remnant theology, and I believe it is more biblical than pure dispensationalism (separation theology) or pure covenant theology (replacement theology).

I think people get confused, because the term "Israel" can be used in different ways depending on the context. Sometimes people use it 2 different ways in the same sentence. Israel can refer to either the physical descendants of Abraham (Jews or physical Israel) or to the remnant of Jews who are faithful to God (faithful Israel). One is a subset of the other. The Gentiles were not grafted into the larger group (physical Israel), but into the subset (faithful Israel). Once the Gentiles were grafted into faithful Israel, there is no distinction within the remnant between Jew and Gentile. Both have the same promises and blessings.

Physical Israel is another matter. They have a special promise of the inheritance of the physical land. The Gentiles were not grafted into that group. Jews who are part of physical Israel, yet not part of faithful Israel are not the "Bride of Christ". Nor are they branches any longer. They have been cut off. But they are still entitled to the physical land, because that promise of that land was unconditional. At some point in the future, God will do a work in physical Israel again, and a large portion of physical Jews will become part of the faithful remnant (through Jesus). Then the bride of Christ will be complete (both Jew and Gentile), and they will both receive the eternal kingdom

[Guest yod]

you always say it much nicer than me

Maybe you should be a pastor or something?

Thanks for your help!

[EricH]

you always say it much nicer than me

Maybe you should be a pastor or something?

Thanks for your help!

But you are much better looking than me and sing much better.

[traveller]

Israel is a manifestation of the Kingdom of God. There is no "Body of Christ" apart from Israel. The word "church" has been redefined post-biblically to mean something separate but that is not found in any quotes from the bible. The proper definition of "church" is The faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are added to them Any other definition is just wrong and misses the point of the entire bible.

The jewish people are the natural branches of "the Body" which I am defending. The Lord's Bride, according to the Word of God, is New Jerusalem and that is the same Kingdom promised to the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are joined to them.

I would agree. There has always been a faithful remanant of Israel who are obedient to God. It is to that remnant that the Gentiles have been grafted and it is that remnant of both Jews and Gentiles that make up the body of Christ. This is called remnant theology, and I believe it is more biblical than pure dispensationalism (separation theology) or pure covenant theology (replacement theology).

I think people get confused, because the term "Israel" can be used in different ways depending on the context. Sometimes people use it 2 different ways in the same sentence. Israel can refer to either the physical descendants of Abraham (Jews or physical Israel) or to the remnant of Jews who are faithful to God (faithful Israel). One is a subset of the other. The Gentiles were not grafted into the larger group (physical Israel), but into the subset (faithful Israel). Once the Gentiles were grafted into faithful Israel, there is no distinction within the remnant between Jew and Gentile. Both have the same promises and blessings.

Physical Israel is another matter. They have a special promise of the inheritance of the physical land. The Gentiles were not grafted into that group. Jews who are part of physical Israel, yet not part of faithful Israel are not the "Bride of Christ". Nor are they branches any longer. They have been cut off. But they are still entitled to the physical land, because that promise of that land was unconditional. At some point in the future, God will do a work in physical Israel again, and a large portion of physical Jews will become part of the faithful remnant (through Jesus). Then the bride of Christ will be complete (both Jew and Gentile), and they will both receive the eternal kingdom

Wow EricH - I'm printin this! Good job!!

[Massorite]

'ruck1b' date='May 15 2008, 02:50 PM'

Do you defend the Body of Christ with such fervor? Do you speak with such distain when people dismiss our Lords Bride?

I am biased for biblical truth. I apologize if that hurts anyone but faithful are the bruises of a friend.

Israel is a manifestation of the Kingdom of God. There is no "Body of Christ" apart from Israel. The word "church" has been redefined post-biblically to mean something separate but that is not found in any quotes from the bible. The proper definition of "church" is The faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are added to them Any other definition is just wrong and misses the point of the entire bible.

The Jewish people are the natural branches of "the Body" which I am defending. The Lord's Bride, according to the Word of God, is New Jerusalem and that is the same Kingdom promised to the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are joined to them.

I understand that you have always been told that the Bride is the church and came by the Greek perspective honestly.....but that is not found in the Bible anywhere. That is an invention of post-biblical European theologians.

God made a promise to Israel (the Jews) and for the sake of their Fathers; Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and He will keep it.

We are part of their covenants...or we are not in the Kingdom at all.

To be a righteous man in the Kingdom is to be a righteous man. This is what the Lord requires of all His people, Jew or gentile.

however, you will find no place in the bible where a Jew can become a gentile or vice versa though there are many places where a gentile can be joined to the tribes of Israel with complete equality of purpose while retaining a distinction. Ruth, Rehab, and Caleb are good examples.

But to be a Jew is something else altogether....to be a "Jew" means you are a descendant of those Patriarchs whom the Lord promised the land of Israel to OR that you have undergone a conversion ceremony to become a Jew. So Paul is speaking only to that group of people when he tells them that to be a "true Jew" means you are a descendant of the Patriarchs, observant of God's instruction (Torah) and have also been circumcised in the heart.

Man you said a mouthful Yod and I agree. People seem to forget that it all started with the nation God choose first to be His people above all other nations on earth starting with Abraham.

All of the bible and especially prophecy is centered around the Jewish people but God has never rejected any one who wanted to become one of His people and abide by His commandments.

The nation of Israel was and is supposed to be the beacon to show the world how to live for God and though they are not that beacon today as a nation they will be in the future. We should always remember that above all other nations on earth the nation of Israel is still the Apple of God,s Eye.

[Guest yod]

But you are much better looking than me

oh man...you are in serious trouble if I'm better looking!?

[Guest]