Jack_White

Blindseeker, you typed: [interesting.

EricH, Good post! Thanks! isong4worship, I enjoyed reading your questions, and I liked this comment the most: "I realized John 1 talks about Andrew and Simon going to meet Jesus after John Baptist's proclamation of Jesus being Messiah." Some Christians give the impression that the disciples followed Jesus with absolute blind faith, but Jn 1 shows that Jesus' first disciples came from John the Baptist, who was sent to prepare the way. When John the Baptist testified that Jesus was the lamb of God (Jn 1:36~), two disciples left John and followed Jesus. John understood some of the figurative language, so when he called Jesus "the lamb," the disciples realized that Jesus was the one whom their teacher had been testifying. They followed him. Have you ever wondered why John himself did not follow suit and join Jesus? In Jn 1:45, what does Philip say to Nathanael? "We have found the one who loves you and just believe!" No, Philip said, "We have found the one that Moses wrote about in the Law and about whom the Prophets also wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." We should consider how the first disciples testified about Jesus and compare how people today testify about Jesus. We should also be able to say the same thing Philip did, as well as backing that claim with scriptures. What other thoughts have emerged during your quiet times these days? God bless you!

Would anyone be interested in continuing this thread in the inner court?

if we are christians then we are of Abrahams seed...in Christ, by faith

Sheya, The reason the opening post was written was to open the forum that there has been much persecution and labeling of others as cults without using the Bible as the standard. I am sure that no one would think they are only using the standards of people, but how many could open their Bibles and point out the errors of denominations or labeled cult groups using Bible passages? Do Christians call "Mormons" a cult because their pastor says they are or because they actually know the Mormon doctrine and can use scriptures to support or refute them? Aren't Mormons (just an example of a group that people in my home state considered a cult) also educated people? Shouldn't we use educated defenses based on scriptures? Even if a group is called a cult, should we persecute them? Unfortunately, when we hear "cult" associated with a group thirty times, we often just start thinking of that group as a cult rather than researching. In Korea, many churches considered the Assembly of God church as a cult. However, when the numbers grew rapidly, the claims of a cult decreased. What was the standard? Number of people in a church? What was the size of Jesus' church at the first coming? How did people view him? (see Acts 24 and what Paul was called) Shouldn't we base our standard of the truth upon the word? Sheya, what is Shinchonji? It sounds weird, right? It is actually a Korean expression that means "new heaven and earth" based upon Rev 21:1-6. Have you heard of the Vineyard church? Vineyard, in the figurative language of the Bible, represents a church (Jn 15:1, Jesus calls himself the vine and his followers branches of that vine. Therefore, people were referred to as vines and branches of vines. A place where many vines are gathered is a vineyard. Isa 5:7 also talks about this.) If you refer to the figurative language in the Bible, heaven has many meanings and "tabernacle" (or church) is one of them. Since we as Christians are waiting for the new heaven and new earth, the church's title is a reminder that someday that prophecy must be fulfilled. I am not trying to promote the church, I am just hopefully answering your question. If anyone else has any questions about Shinchonji, maybe it would be better to email me (I do not want to sound like I am promoting the church in this forum).

For clarification, I meant that a certain denomination here has decided that Bible studies should only take place within a church. Isn't that weird?

Due to the many visits and comments many are interested in this topic. To the moderator, could we delete this topic here in the "Outer Court" and start the discussion again in the "Inner court"? When I first posted this discussion, I did not realize the differences between the outer and inner courts in this chat forum. As a moderator and I discussed, this topic is definitely not for unbelievers. My apologies in that regard. A moderator also asked me on the origin of the post. I have posted this discussion in other places, so if you see it posted elsewhere...yeah, that is my post. I hope that it encourages others to read their Bibles even more deeply. Some others have wondered why I would post something like this. In some Christian countries the persecution of labeling other denominations as cults is quite rampant and the stereotypes are very high. Where I currently am, if I open my Bible in a coffeeshop, others view me as a Mormon or Jehovah Witness. If I study with friends in a home and not in a church setting, many Christians believe that it is a cult just by the nature of studying outside the home. These things happened even to many believers of different denominations in this country. What is the standard for determining if something is a cult or not? Should it just be from outward appearances or acts? Shouldn't our standard be the Bible?

Ummm...the overcomer Jesus refers to is US! We, the Church! We, individuals, who comprise the Bride! I have no idea how you can discern otherwise. If you are saying that we are the overcomers according to Rev 2-3, then you are declaring that the events of Rev are taking place. Yes, we should overcome sin in our lives and personal struggles, etc., but when the events of Rev take place, then we must overcome at that time. If you claim that you are an overcomer, you need to answer these questions: what does it mean to eat from the tree of life? How can we eat from the tree of life? What does the iron scepter mean? Where is your iron scepter? If someone claims to be the one that overcomes, then he or she must be able to explain the 12 blessings that Jesus promised to the one who overcomes.

Good question, Dave! Hopefully, everyone would be honest and ask that. We also should carefully listen to the words of everyone teaching the Bible. Heb 5:11-14 distinguishes two types of "food": milk and solid food. Are we receiving milk or solid food? What is the difference? Is something solid food merely because we think it is? Who can distinguish good from evil?

"You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me." (Jn 8:44-45) God has been working for the past 6,000 years to reveal the truth to his people. Satan, on the other hand, has been falsely testifying about God's people to interfere with God's work (Ac 7:51-54, 24:5). People working on behalf of Satan conspired against and killed many righteous people, including Jesus (Mt 23:34-35). How can anyone do such a thing? People who receive evil spirits speak lies to hide their identity and to interfere with the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth. Those who have false gods or evil spirits within them purposefully tell lies to persecute God's people and block the way to the true pastor God sends. They spin lies about the true pastor by saying that he claims himself to be Jesus, God (2Th 2:4), the owner of the church of Jesus, the spiritual advocate, or even the rider of the white horse in Rev 19:11. Through these lies many are deceived into thinking that God’s true pastor is nothing more than a cult leader. These lies are designed to push God's true pastor out of the religious world and out of society. Since most people are ignorant of the Bible, they are easily deceived when the servants of Satan tell lies by misusing the scriptures. In the New Testament, Jesus promised a pastor that is clearly not Jesus himself. He is not God, and he is not the owner of the church of Jesus. He is not the spiritual advocate, and he is certainly not the rider on the white horse. In the Bible, Jesus promised a pastor whom God would send in Jesus' name. Jesus promised to send a wise servant who would take charge of Jesus' household until his return (Mt 24:45-47). This wise servant is not Jesus, because Jesus cannot put himself in charge while he is away. Jesus promised to write on his pastor (i.e. the one who overcomes) the name of God, the name of the holy city New Jerusalem, which is coming down from heaven, and Jesus’ new name (Rev 3:12). Jesus does give these names (especially his own new name) to himself. In Rev 2:17, Jesus promised to give the one who overcomes the white stone and the hidden manna. In Rev 2:26, Jesus gives the one who overcomes the iron scepter to rule all nations, which he received from his father. Since Jesus is giving these blessings and the one who overcomes is receiving them, the one who overcomes cannot be Jesus. In Rev 3:21, Jesus promised the one who overcomes a seat on his throne. Jesus received this right to sit with God the father on his throne because he too overcame. Again, Jesus is not the same as the one who overcomes in Revelation. Jesus does not send the letters to the seven churches according to his own command (Rev 1:9-11). Jesus does not receive the open book of revelation from heaven (Rev 10). Jesus does not testify to what he has seen and heard (i.e. the events of Revelation) (Rev 1:2). Jesus is not the one who inherits everything and is called one who overcomes in Rev 21:7. Since the Bible tells us that the one who overcomes receives everything from Jesus, he cannot be Jesus. The one who overcomes cannot be the head of the church of Jesus, because the church of Jesus is a possession of Jesus. Of course, Jesus is the head of the church of Jesus. How can anyone who truly knows the Bible call himself Jesus or the head of the church of Jesus? Why do people tell such lies? Clearly they have false gods within them. If you are a true Christian, who believes in the Bible with reason and logic, you must forgive others and love them just like God and Jesus. There are many people, however, who refuse to forgive and love others. Instead, they envy, curse, slander, persecute, judge and gather to harm others. Is that the work of God? Please judge for yourself through the word with the eyes, ears, and heart of the spirit (Mt 6:12-15, 18:21-35). Although God may have forgiven a person's sins previously, anyone who refuses to forgive the small sins of others will not ultimately receive the forgiveness of God. God and Jesus have forgiven us by bearing the cross for us. Just like God and Jesus, we must forgive and love one another.

Cobalt, you should do more than just a cursory glance. I challenge you to join one of the sites and see if the material posted is true or not. It is not new age or some strange occult. I spent many years researching cults and occults. I love apologetics. The SCJ site does encourage a deeper understanding of all parts of the Bible. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCJChurchofJesus/ Blog: http://healingallnations.shinchonji.com/ Even a cursory glance would tell you that their theology has some "problems." Seems there is some new age stuff thrown in for good measure as well.

Eric, you are in error by your statement. SCJChurch of Jesus is not related to lds or a oneness apostolic church. Before you associate any group be it Baptist or Catholics or SCJ or Mormons as a a cult, you must have the proper standard. What is your standard: the word of mouth or the word of truth? Please be careful with your words. Isn't it better to research something new and use the standard of the Bible rather than quickly labeling? But I would encourage you, Eric, and everyone else to visit the articles on the sites below. Please have your Bible ready, as it is best to read every verse and check the context if it is true or not. If you have questions, please feel free to leave comments. Or, even join the group on yahoo for chats. The chats are quite interesting in the yahoo forum. Blog: http://healingallnations.shinchonji.com/ Yahoo forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCJChurchofJesus/

Thank you for responding to my earlier post! What is more important: To be able to label theories or to use scriptures to support what God is saying through his word? 1.) John 1:11-13: Jn 1:11 He (Jesus) came to that which was his own but his own did not receive him." Who are his own that did not receive him? Those of the old covenant that were waiting for the Messiah to come. Jn 1:12 YET to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will but born of God. What are the requirements to become children of God? The old requirements for being a subject of the old covenant: born of natural descent from Abraham (Mt 1), human decision, or a husband's will (all physical requirements). To those who received him, to those who believed in his name (his own did not, v. 11) he gave the right to become children of God. NOT of natural descent, human decision, or a husband's will (physical attributes), but born of God (spiritually). A. Please define who becomes the children of God after Jesus comes: the phsyically chosen people or the spiritually chosen people? The Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah promised by God in his word (Lk 24:44). Of the small remnant that accepted Jesus, they became children of God spiritually, by being born of God. If they continued to be the children of God, why did John not mention that they could also be a child of God through physical means? Are those who believe in Jesus physically born of God? God is spirit. What does it mean to be born of God? The Jews, however, on a whole like all other people in the world have the chance to be spiritually chosen people. God has not rejected the Jews or any particular nation: all have the chance to be born of God. However, the old covenant with the physically chosen people of the Israelites was broken. Why? God found fault with the people. Please read Hebrews 8:5-10. The new covenant is made with spiritually chosen people, with laws written not on physical tablets of stone but written on our hearts (spiritually). Did God lie when he made the conditions of the old covenant in Ex 19:5-6? Are we saved because we are Jews and are keeping the law of the old covenant? Are we trying to keep the old covenant or the new covenant? If we do not even understand the old covenant and that it has been finished, how can we claim that we are keeping the new covenant? Let's understand God's word, especially the new covenant, and be ready for Jesus when he comes back by understanding the events that are to take place according to his word and not according to theories. ---------------------------------- Questions to consider: Mt 21:43 The Pharisees and teachers of the law were considered rulers (spiritually), if Acts 13:26-27 (and 1Co 2) is read. Who receives the kingdom next? Who are "a people who will produce its fruit"? What is the meaning of fruit? Did the Israelites fail to produce enough apples one year? 1Pe 2:9 If the Jews are still God's chosen people after the making of the new covenant, why does Peter call Christians "a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God"? If the new requirements are no longer physical, then why is the term "Israel" continually used in the New Testament? Aren't they still waiting for the Messiah to come? Why does Paul, a physical Jew, write to Romans and say that a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly?

I also have had dreams about being left behind in the past. I woke up sweating. The dreams were based upon the numerous end times novels and doctrine I have heard at churches. But after hearing so many doomsday prophecies concerning Y2K, I have been turned off to such loose interpretations. For example, what things must happen before Jesus comes back? I am not sure if anyone is interested, probably only those with a hunger for the truth and have an interest on deeper matters, but please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCJChurchofJesus/messages (posts 21-24). I just mentioned these posts because the articles have left me very intrigued. I would like to know what others think. How many of you have read the Left Behind series? Interesting thought I've also been thinking a lot about the meaning of the 3 suns and maybe in the concept of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost the 2 smaller suns represent The Father and The Holy Ghost and the bigger and brightest of the suns represent The Son who is Jesus. I also remember reading that in the end times Jesus said to look to the heavens for signs that his return is near.

Wow! That is an awesome point! I absolutely agree with you! Why would God specifically choose Jews when Paul talks about the true Jew being those who are Jews inwardly and that circumcision is no longer circumcision of the flesh but of the heart! Romans 2:28-29. Why would God and Jesus revert back to the people that rejected Jesus at the first coming, and those few that did reject him are part of the spiritual family of God? A close friend recommended this website to me. He said the site explains controversial issues with much detail and clear Bible explanations. I have read only three of the many articles posted, but you might enjoy reading them. Let me know what you think! Maybe we can discuss the articles as well! Please read the posts numbered 21-24. Those were articles posted by the site. It seems like people on that site are really seeking the truth. I hope I always have a heart like that! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCJChurchofJesus/messages