Why does God allow so much pain?

[sharonvinchrist]

Here is they why?

You don't sound sure.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Angelique started this thread by asking why God permitted suffering, in particular I want to know why He permits innocent suffering. If I loved my children, and I do, I would never let them suffer the way God has permitted extreme human suffering. I don't see anything in your selection of scriptures to explain why God continues to permit suffering. Perhaps I am just not grasping what the passages mean. Instead of quoting the Bible to me it might be helpful if you stopped to explain what some of the most important passages mean and explain why it is that you think they explain why God allows humans to suffer so. Perhaps you might explain why He permitted the Holocaust where 6 million Jews suffered terribly before they died. Or explain why Stalin was allowed to cause the deaths of an estimated 20 million kulaks during the 1930s and 1940s? Or we could go back to Roman times and you could explain why God allowed more than 6000 followers of Sparticus to suffer crucifiction at the hands of the Romans? Why does God permit evil to exist? This is one of the biggest reasons people stop believing. Can you explain in your own words why God has not acted as any loving parent would act? The failure is not for me a criticism of God, it is a proof that He does not exist.

I can give you a scripture yes the enemy does send bad things our way and we do learn from them but we always have the victory in Luke 10:19 it says that I give you the authority to trample on serpants and scropions and over all the enemy, and nothing shall byu any means hurt you WE have the authority we just have to learn to walkinit God shows me all the time what the enemy is trying to do Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. submit yourselves to God resist the dev il and he will flee if you are not doing any resisting he will not flee God will teach us how to do that In Matthew it says whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven we have been given authority to bind the devil in the name of Jesus and loose or allow the Holy Spirit to do what He wnts to do in this situation. we need to incline our ears toi Gods word and let that be the final authority in our lives `God will show you what kind osf spirit is working behind someone and He will show us what to doyou speak what God tells you to speak He always brings you back to His word The devil does not have ant thing on us in Colossians 2:15 It says Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public show of them, triumping over them in it.the battle has already been won yes things come but we have the authority to speak Jesus name and i the devil is already defeated by what Jesus did on the cross everything has to bow to the name of Jesus. we have to learn to walk inall that Jesus has done for us

[HAZARD]

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future, or that He deliberately places or sends sickness, pain and suffering upon any of His Children for any reason, let alone to teach them anything at all.

Many people, myself included in days gone by have stumbled over Paul's thorn in the flesh, and some use this to try and prove God sends pain and suffering upon His children, and that God also will not heal some people. Paul's thorn in the flesh was not weak eyes or some other physical sickness or God sent suffering as most men teach. It was simply "a fallen angel of Satan," for the greek word for "messenger" in 2 Cor. 12:7 means an angel and not a disease.

Paul Himself stated;

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure" (2 Cor. 12:7).

This angel followed Paul and caused all the sufferings he listed in 2 Cor. 11 which were to keep him humble lest he should be exalted above measure.

The expression "thorn in the flesh" should be understood in the same sense it is understood in these Scriptures; (Read Numbers 33:55; Joshua 23:13; Judges 2;3; 8:7). In these passages no disease is mentioned for they refer to the wars and hardships Israel was going to go through at the hands of the giants they had refused to kill. The thornin paul's flesh, therefore referes to the sufferings the angel of the devil caused him to endure as proved by 2 Cor. 4:8-18; 6:1-10; 11:16-33; 12:7-11; 1 Cor. 4:9-17. The word "buffet" used in 2 Cor. 12:7 of Paul is never used of sickness, as proved where it is used in Scriptures as, (Matt. 26:67; 1 Cor. 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:20). Therefore, whatever it was that was buffeting paul to keep him humble had to be some supernatural person to harmonize with all Scripture.

God knows His entire plan for man from beginning to end, that is from all eternity past to all eternity future, and God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be healed and saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

God is not the author or sin or sickness. Satan and demons cause all the troubles in this fallen world. The truth is, if God's will were obeyed by all there would be no reaping for wrong sowing. There would be no sin, sickness, or death, and no suffering of any kind. This will be the condition on Earth when God returns and rules here (Rev. 21:1-7).

This would be the condition here now if God ruled, so it is clear that the rule of others on the Earth who are in rebellion against God has caused the sin and suffering on every hand. May God save us and help us from such modern fallacies that God gets any glory out of seeing His Children in trouble. He does not like to see them suffering, defeated, living in sin, dying with all kinds of diseases, full of dispair and unbelief, and given over to the ravages of fallen angels and demons. If we will but obey the Lord and follow all His teachings there will be no failure to get from God what He has promised us In His Word.

[sharonvinchrist]

My point was that God allows our pain to teach us about His faithfulness and mercy. He will not give us more than we can bare.

Stacey, what about the thousands who commit suicide every year? Would you not say they have been handed more than they can bare? We have a fellow here in Ontario named Paul Bernardo who is now behind bars, but when he was loose he was responsible for untold numbers of sexual attacks and murders including that of teenage girls lured by his wife for use as sex slaves. Over a period of weeks they were abused, tortured and murdered (cut into pieces I believe), all filmed on video for his later viewing pleasure. You don't think those girls were tortured beyond endurance? You don't think that the millions of Jews who died at the hands of their Nazi captors were handed more than they could bare? On one of the bunks in the Auschwitz concentration camp are carved the words, 'If there is a God he needs to beg me to forgive him.' Where does the love of God go?

Your statements make no sense to me. God is doing us a favour by allowing monsters to abuse and torture innocent victims? The more a person is tortured, the more pain they experience, somehow teaches them more about God's mercy? I don't follow. It is because of acts like these that the problem of evil is for many people an obstacle to belief in God.

You really are in the dark here, Cycel. God doesn't create evil. Man has free will and most choose to follow satan. The Lord offers every one of us salvation and eternity with Him; this is His mercy to unworthy mankind. Most reject that offer. That's the whole mystery solved right there. The world belongs to man and the devil for an allotted period of time....after that, the Lord will judge His creations and destroy this world. We all choose how we live our lives, what we believe, and where we end up. The horrible things you described are man's doing; not God's.

well said

[sharonvinchrist]

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future, or that He deliberately places or sends sickness, pain and suffering upon any of His Children for any reason, let alone to teach them anything at all.

Many people, myself included in days gone by have stumbled over Paul's thorn in the flesh, and some use this to try and prove God sends pain and suffering upon His children, and that God also will not heal some people. Paul's thorn in the flesh was not weak eyes or some other physical sickness or God sent suffering as most men teach. It was simply "a fallen angel of Satan," for the greek word for "messenger" in 2 Cor. 12:7 means an angel and not a disease.

Paul Himself stated;

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure" (2 Cor. 12:7).

This angel followed Paul and caused all the sufferings he listed in 2 Cor. 11 which were to keep him humble lest he should be exalted above measure. well said I agree 100percentYou took the words out of my mouth all the bad things comes fron the enemy I am tired of people giving Gods a bad name He really does love us and wants us whole in every area of our lives we just have to receive what He has already done

The expression "thorn in the flesh" should be understood in the same sense it is understood in these Scriptures; (Read Numbers 33:55; Joshua 23:13; Judges 2;3; 8:7). In these passages no disease is mentioned for they refer to the wars and hardships Israel was going to go through at the hands of the giants they had refused to kill. The thornin paul's flesh, therefore referes to the sufferings the angel of the devil caused him to endure as proved by 2 Cor. 4:8-18; 6:1-10; 11:16-33; 12:7-11; 1 Cor. 4:9-17. The word "buffet" used in 2 Cor. 12:7 of Paul is never used of sickness, as proved where it is used in Scriptures as, (Matt. 26:67; 1 Cor. 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:20). Therefore, whatever it was that was buffeting paul to keep him humble had to be some supernatural person to harmonize with all Scripture.

God knows His entire plan for man from beginning to end, that is from all eternity past to all eternity future, and God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be healed and saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

God is not the author or sin or sickness. Satan and demons cause all the troubles in this fallen world. The truth is, if God's will were obeyed by all there would be no reaping for wrong sowing. There would be no sin, sickness, or death, and no suffering of any kind. This will be the condition on Earth when God returns and rules here (Rev. 21:1-7).

This would be the condition here now if God ruled, so it is clear that the rule of others on the Earth who are in rebellion against God has caused the sin and suffering on every hand. May God save us and help us from such modern fallacies that God gets any glory out of seeing His Children in trouble. He does not like to see them suffering, defeated, living in sin, dying with all kinds of diseases, full of dispair and unbelief, and given over to the ravages of fallen angels and demons. If we will but obey the Lord and follow all His teachings there will be no failure to get from God what He has promised us In His Word.

[sharonvinchrist]

Here is they why?

You don't sound sure.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Angelique started this thread by asking why God permitted suffering, in particular I want to know why He permits innocent suffering. If I loved my children, and I do, I would never let them suffer the way God has permitted extreme human suffering. I don't see anything in your selection of scriptures to explain why God continues to permit suffering. Perhaps I am just not grasping what the passages mean. Instead of quoting the Bible to me it might be helpful if you stopped to explain what some of the most important passages mean and explain why it is that you think they explain why God allows humans to suffer so. Perhaps you might explain why He permitted the Holocaust where 6 million Jews suffered terribly before they died. Or explain why Stalin was allowed to cause the deaths of an estimated 20 million kulaks during the 1930s and 1940s? Or we could go back to Roman times and you could explain why God allowed more than 6000 followers of Sparticus to suffer crucifiction at the hands of the Romans? Why does God permit evil to exist? This is one of the biggest reasons people stop believing. Can you explain in your own words why God has not acted as any loving parent would act? The failure is not for me a criticism of God, it is a proof that He does not exist.

I can give you a scripture yes the enemy does send bad things our way and we do learn from them but we always have the victory in Luke 10:19 it says that I give you the authority to trample on serpants and scropions and over all the enemy, and nothing shall byu any means hurt you WE have the authority we just have to learn to walkinit God shows me all the time what the enemy is trying to do Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. submit yourselves to God resist the dev il and he will flee if you are not doing any resisting he will not flee God will teach us how to do that In Matthew it says whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven we have been given authority to bind the devil in the name of Jesus and loose or allow the Holy Spirit to do what He wnts to do in this situation. we need to incline our ears toi Gods word and let that be the final authority in our lives `God will show you what kind osf spirit is working behind someone and He will show us what to doyou speak what God tells you to speak He always brings you back to His word The devil does not have ant thing on us in Colossians 2:15 It says Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public show of them, triumping over them in it.the battle has already been won yes things come but we have the authority to speak Jesus name and i the devil is already defeated by what Jesus did on the cross everything has to bow to the name of Jesus. we have to learn to walk inall that Jesus has done for us

you said that you would do any thing to save your children well guess what? God did eveything to save us by Jesus going to the cross For God so loved the world that He gave His only begottenson that whosoever believes in Himshould not perish but have everlasting life.. would you give up one of your children to save 1 lost soul? I dont think so but God did.. You dont know the love of Christ but I pray you will .Satan is the god of this world and and he rules this world but God will rule it one day People are swayed by the wicked one and they make there on choicesin this life its not Gods fault that people choose to do bad things

[HAZARD]

God gave Adam and Eve doninion over all things on the Earth put Adam and Eve in charge of the Earth.

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused Adam and Eve to fall, and Satan REGAINED dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

Haz.

[sharonvinchrist]

God gave Adam and Eve doninion over all things on the Earth put Adam and Eve in charge of the Earth.

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused Adam and Eve to fall, and Satan REGAINED dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

Haz.

you have some very good teaching I agree with you

[sharonvinchrist]

My point was that God allows our pain to teach us about His faithfulness and mercy. He will not give us more than we can bare.

Stacey, what about the thousands who commit suicide every year? Would you not say they have been handed more than they can bare? We have a fellow here in Ontario named Paul Bernardo who is now behind bars, but when he was loose he was responsible for untold numbers of sexual attacks and murders including that of teenage girls lured by his wife for use as sex slaves. Over a period of weeks they were abused, tortured and murdered (cut into pieces I believe), all filmed on video for his later viewing pleasure. You don't think those girls were tortured beyond endurance? You don't think that the millions of Jews who died at the hands of their Nazi captors were handed more than they could bare? On one of the bunks in the Auschwitz concentration camp are carved the words, 'If there is a God he needs to beg me to forgive him.' Where does the love of God go?

Your statements make no sense to me. God is doing us a favour by allowing monsters to abuse and torture innocent victims? The more a person is tortured, the more pain they experience, somehow teaches them more about God's mercy? I don't follow. It is because of acts like these that the problem of evil is for many people an obstacle to belief in God.

You really are in the dark here, Cycel. God doesn't create evil. Man has free will and most choose to follow satan. The Lord offers every one of us salvation and eternity with Him; this is His mercy to unworthy mankind. Most reject that offer. That's the whole mystery solved right there. The world belongs to man and the devil for an allotted period of time....after that, the Lord will judge His creations and destroy this world. We all choose how we live our lives, what we believe, and where we end up. The horrible things you described are man's doing; not God's.

well said

NOT well said! MorningGlory put words into my mouth. I never said God created evil. I replied to her post and corrected her false asumptions regarding what I wrote, but she has not responded.

I do agree that people have free will. I would like to make some further comments but must run.

I agree with her that you are in the darkif you were half as interested in finding God as you were trying to prove He doesnt exist then you would find Him you just are trying to debate you are not open to anything so if you are not open to it you wont recieve it you just want to cause confusion but guess what there is no confusion on my part I know who I am and I overcome by the boold of of the Lamb and by the word of my testimony and you cant t ake that away so I am not going to talk about anything else with you on this because I know who sent you here .the devil will use you if you let himand thats what you are doing when I decern someone like you I cut them loose wasting time when could be talking with someone who really wants to know God .

[Metadyjital]

this is good stuff guys _ I am enjoying the responses!

[Ovedya]

i) Some very early Christian writings from the 1st or 2nd century have been found that tell their readers not to take the resurrection story as a physical fact. The writings explain that the resurrection should be understood symbolically. If you need a source I will have to do some digging. I have read a lot lately and don't recall where I saw this.

"Some very Christian writings" doesn't prove church doctrine, however. Who wrote them? Were they part of a sect, or were they considered authorities in the church? I think that I could find "some very early writings" on just about any subject which contradicts the conventional thought, wisdom, or accepted "doctrines" of just about any group. The fact is, in the first three centuries of church history there were many groups around that were splinters of orthodox Christianity - just like today. Those groups and their theology do not represent the accepted orthodoxy or theology of the true church. So the point of "very early Christian writings" is really moot.

ii) The Aryans, now considered heretics, believed Jesus was not God. They did view him as the son of God, however. How much of a sacrifice was the death of Jesus to God? I asked this because within a week or so Jesus was back in Heaven presumably whole and healthy. I have never understood the rational behind blood sacrifices. All ancient religions required them. The pagans sacrificed huge numbers of animals as did the Jews in the temple. God was very specific in requiring animal sacrifice and in the Old Testament laid down rules on how it should be done. Why should God need animals killed on his behalf? What did it do for him? What did it do for the pagan gods? Was the human sacrifice in the person of Jesus strictly symbolic? Why the physical need for a blood sacrifice? What is the science behind it? I just don't get it.

Then I recommend that you look into it, do some research and find out. I could never possibly hope to expound on the subject here, given the limited space and time in my personal life. However, I think that you should be aware that the Jewish practice of sacrifice in the Old Testament was very different than the pagan practices. In Jewish theology the blood of the animal was shed for the remission of sins - both personal and corporate (That is, the corporate sins of the Jews individually and as a people corporately). The sacrifice was set as a pattern in the book of Genesis, when God killed an animal to clothe the naked Adam and Eve, and was specifically commanded by God in the book of Exodus.

The pagan practice of sacrifice was largely to appease the god's bloodlust on the one hand, but also to gain power through the drinking or participating in that blood in some form. I don;t believe that all ancient religions required animal sacrifice, however.

As far as Jesus is concerned there were two aspects to His sacrifice. On the one hand there needed to be the shedding of blood. The shedding of blood is symbolic in a sense, because it signifies that a death has occurred. In the Old Testament sacrifices the death of the animal was, for the individual, symbolic of his own death. For a time, the death of the animal was sufficient as a replacement for the individual. However, there is a twofold problem in man. It is not just that man's sin requires death, it is also that man's sin demands life. Man's twofold problem is that he is dead in his sins and offenses, and that he does not have the life of God. The Old Testament sacrifices temporarily satisfied the righteous requirement of God's law, that blood be shed for the remission of sins, but it did not satisfy God's very heart's desire, which is that man contain the divine element of God Himself. Only by coming to the earth Himself, and by being the righteous and pure sacrifice, could God be able to impart His very divine element into man. Jesus, as a real mean - as a righteous, pure and undefiled man - was absolutely qualified to be an absolute sacrifice for sin. In His process of death, Jesus, as a man, also conquered physical death, by resurrecting from the grave. Not only so, but in His resurrection He made it possible for all who believe into Him to be resurrected from the grave as well. In His ascension Jesus was made Lord over all things - over all things in the universe - again, as a man. That is important because man's authority in the universe was lost in the fall.

All of that I just wrote is just a brief summary of Christian theology. Again, this matter is too deep and far too profound to be able to get it all down here. I think it is sufficient to say, however, that Jesus' sacrifice was a lot more profound than you may think. The meaning and purpose of the death of Christ and what He accomplished, is very profound. It is a matter which theologians have searched for centuries.

iii) If Jesus was really God then how can letting oneself be killed and then going back to Heaven to reign be any kind of sacrifice?

If Lance Armstrong really is the best bicyclist in the world, than how can he still be considered the best since he retired from the sport? Tiger Woods just won the U.S. Open with a torn ACL and fractured leg. He received a trophy of some sort for that event. Tiger also has numerous awards and trophies in a room in his home, no doubt. Do those accomplishments simply cease to exist because he's no longer winning them? Do the awards lose their meaning after they've been won? Obviously not.

Like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods, Christ's accomplishments still stand. Unlike Tiger and Lance, however, Christ's accomplishment on the cross will stand for eternity. In fact, Jesus' death included resurrection, ascension, and enthronement. Each of those items are processes, aspects, of Christ's redemption.

I won't labour with the details but what I believe is that Jesus did not expect to die and neither did his followers expect it. After he was crucified his followers took and hid the body giving rise to the notion that he had risen. Whether his followers spread that story I have no idea. One of the gospels does tell us that there was a story going round that the disciples had taken his body. We are told, I think, not to believe those rumours, but perhaps there is truth in them after all.

There's a basic problem with that premise, and it's been pretty much settled: If the disciples hid Jesus' body, then they lied about His resurrection. Not only so, but the Bible tells us that there were perhaps hundreds witness to the resurrection. So if they were lied to, or were wrong themselves, then they are all equally complicit in one of the largest coordinated conspiracies in world history (In fact, even if it were just the 12 apostles themselves, then they created the largest conspiracy in human history). However, we know from experience that eventually a lie is uncovered. We also know that it is highly unlikely that a man would willingly die for what he knows is a lie. The apostles and the hundreds that were witness to the resurrection were brutally attacked and killed for about 100 years. Both the Romans and the Jews persecuted the first century church. You would think that at least one of them would have confessed to the conspiracy.

... would you give up one of your children to save 1 lost soul?

No, but neither did God once you think about it. The story in the Bible has it that Jesus went right back to Heaven, whole and healthy. God never lost him. If I sacrificed my child I would never see him again. That a very big difference don't you think?

In your eyes, maybe. But then you don't have God's view of sacrifice, do you? You have your own limited view and understanding of what sacrifice is. When you really boil it down sacrifice is about selflessness. Jesus was no less selfless for having gone to the cross to satisfy God's righteous requirement and to make available to us the very eternal life of God, making us partakers of the divine nature, because He resurrected and ascended to the throne of Grace. It is in fact there that Jesus mediates His very own sacrifice to God.

So, yeah, there is a big difference. If you pushed your child out of the way of a speeding bus and got run over yourself your sacrifice only saved your child once. But Jesus' sacrifice has saved, is saving, and will save millions of people all over the world. Your sacrifice may be remembered for two generations and then forgotten. Jesus sacrifice is remembered by His saints every Lord's day, and will be remembered for eternity.