Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2004 Paul's Change in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:51-55) In order to understand the change that Paul says the (first century saints) would go through (we shall all be changed) We as in Paul looked forward to be changed also. We today must understand the change according to the Bible and Paul's understanding, and not the traditional idea's of the change today. What was this great change that the living would go through? Lest start at the beginning of the Bible. In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in the day you eat thereof you will surely die." Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say "No!" because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical. Death in this context means separation, sin-death, (i.e. separation from God caused by sin); not physical death. In Romans 5:20 we read Paul said the law was added, "that sin might abound." This does not mean that God gave the Old Law to make men sin more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2004 The modern concept that physical human bodies had to be transformed into the likeness of Christ is not consistent with scripture. Paul does not seem to agree with you here. The first century saints were indeed transformed in the likeness of Christ in their physical bodies. In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical body, and resurrection. But notice verse 5: "If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, Paul and the other had died physically. But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection? Who changed Paul's hermeneutic here? Our Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion. For Paul, the "likeness" was the same in both death and life. In verse 8 the apostle says "if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him." Here Paul is talking to people still living in physical bodies yet he says they had died with Christ. The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical. . Paul has not changed subjects; he is still focused on his singular desire to be in the "likeness of Christ. In order to understand what Paul is saying we must see how Paul talks in terms of covenants. Colossians 3:1 is of the same discussion. Paul said the Colossians had died with Christ and their lives were hidden. Was that a physical death NO. The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. We must see things the way Paul was teaching the covenant change over. The futurist view just does not make sense when you look at it in the context of the entire new testament. The typical futurist takes scripture out of context not only of other scripture but of its cultural and historical context. For example, they say that being transformed to His likeness has to do with the physical body. Yet, as you said, the writers of the new testament said this transformation was already in progress in Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Many preterists believe that the words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2004 Many preterists believe that the words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymba22 Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/06/1967 Share Posted May 9, 2004 hey brad...do you believe the word of God is true???then read this:- Rev 7:4Â I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel: Rev 7:5Â 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, Rev 7:6Â 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, Rev 7:7Â 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, Rev 7:8Â 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, and 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. Theres the proof...direct from Gods word...unless of course the bible lies...no before you ask i have no Jewish heratage that i know of... BTW..if the preterist are right...I dont remember Christs 2nd comming and if this is his mill kingdom already...they why is sin still around???oh BTW it behoves a christian not to be prejudice...Jesus wasn't oh and he was a Jew....and if the preterist are right and this is the best God has got to offer...then hand me a gun and i will end it all now...(I'm on a roll in case no-one noticed i could go on like this all day i really hate loathe and abhore anti-seminism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Brad, What happened to you? Brother, you had better get into the Word with some Holy Ghost guidance and quick. You talk nonsense, that is non--sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2004 Brad, What happened to you? Brother, you had better get into the Word with some Holy Ghost guidance and quick. You talk nonsense, that is non--sense. The world(s) and age(s) to come is other nations, people and tongues entering into the body of Christ. The New Jerusalem The Holy city of God has not gone anywhere, like the garden has not gone anywhere. Adam was put out of the garden. Now we can enter back into the garden through Jesus. (The New covenant, Acts Chapter two) Raised up together, caught up together, joined together, fitted together, compacted together, assembled together, framed together, built together, ETC: It is the putting off the Old Covenant body of sin, body of Moses, body of death, body of humiliation, etc. for the fully revealed or mature New Covenant body of Christ. The resurrection was an event that they were already partaking of then, yet it was still future. As the writer of Hebrews said, they were partaking of the powers of the age to come (Heb 6:5). That age being the new covenant age. Thus many of these things they are talking about were there but also yet future. Many teach these earthly bodies will be turn into something that cannot die. The change is life that is put in our vessels (bodies) so that we can take hold of eternal life. Here is a verse that will help explain the scripture referring to from the Old Testament. Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. Life was found in Jesus. Also the tears from the Law was taken away. When they in Jerusalem came from Law to grace. (Glory to Glory). They went from death to life. The temple Killed, brought pain, tears, death, sorrow, etc: Acts 2 Was the new covenant, that brought life, joy, peace, salvation, etc: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2004 hey brad...do you believe the word of God is true???then read this:- Rev 7:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2004 All this stuff is way too over my head so I tend to avoid it...about all I know is that when the Bridegroom comes, I want my lamp trimmed and filled with oil. Not much else matters to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2004 All this stuff is way too over my head so I tend to avoid it...about all I know is that when the Bridegroom comes, I want my lamp trimmed and filled with oil. Not much else matters to me... T One of the most misunderstood and misapplied Parables in the Scriptures is the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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