Guest Butero Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 So....you disagree with the article, then you agree with it??? I do agree with the article and I don't take McCain's spokesman at his word. You, on the other hand, are relying on McCain's spokespeople as though they are a credible source of information. Sorry, but you'll need to do better. I want to see if you can actually back up your case. Well, voting against the farm bill was a good thing. Someone always sticks something in a bill that doesn't belong in it. What didn't belong in the farm bill, kat? (If you're thinking of saying "pork," you'll need to say what pork.) What, specifically, was so bad about the bill that McCain voted to keep the Enron loophole open, thereby allowing gas prices to continue climbing? No Lorax, she doesn't have to list specifics. She didn't have access to the entire bill, and neither did you, but McCain did. Liberals always pull this kind of trick with legislation. They load a bill down with some good, and something bad, which causes Republicans to vote against it. The best way to reduce gas prices is to drill and refine. You made a bogus claim in your original post. You claimed closing the Enron loophole would lower gas prices by half. Where does that figure come from, and exactly how would it accomplish that feat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Apparently liberals are stupid enough to want to close the Enron loophole and thereby cut the price of gas in half. If liberals like Obama were smart, they'd hire gas lobbyists to run their campaign, do nothing to solve the gas problem, and then get rich off kickbacks from oil companies. McCain's got the right idea. This is absolutely bogus, and I don't care if McCain supports it or not. There is no way you can prove closing the Enron loophole will cause gas prices to be cut in half. If you think you can, be my guest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lorax Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 183 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,892 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1985 Share Posted June 26, 2008 This is absolutely bogus, and I don't care if McCain supports it or not. There is no way you can prove closing the Enron loophole will cause gas prices to be cut in half. If you think you can, be my guest. Gas prices are soaring because of rampant speculation which is enabled by the Enron loophole. (More on this.) "Half" is a speculative fraction (no pun intended), but it could be much greater than that. I could cite some economists but do you consider economists to be credible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lorax Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 183 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,892 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1985 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Liberals always pull this kind of trick with legislation. They load a bill down with some good, and something bad, which causes Republicans to vote against it. Really? I didn't know that was a strictly liberal practice. This whole blame-liberals-for-everything schtick is getting tiring, Butero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lorax Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 183 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,892 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1985 Share Posted June 26, 2008 The best way to reduce gas prices is to drill and refine. Nope. Drilling would have no short term benefits because it would take at least five years for production to begin. (Says the EIA.) You made a bogus claim in your original post. I noticed that you've repeatedly called my claim bogus...and then asked me to support it. Shouldn't you wait to see the evidence before you dismiss something as bogus? (Especially if that something could greatly benefit the American economy?) The "cut in half" statistic came from Michael Greenberger, head of the Commodities Future Trading Commission (CFTC), the government board that oversees commodities markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 This is absolutely bogus, and I don't care if McCain supports it or not. There is no way you can prove closing the Enron loophole will cause gas prices to be cut in half. If you think you can, be my guest. Gas prices are soaring because of rampant speculation which is enabled by the Enron loophole. (More on this.) "Half" is a speculative fraction (no pun intended), but it could be much greater than that. I could cite some economists but do you consider economists to be credible? My point is that claiming doing away with the Enron loophole will drop gas prices in half is nothing but a wild guess. If the Congress wants to close this loophole, they should put the issue up for a vote in a bill with nothing else in it, and bring it to the floor for a vote. I am tired of Congress putting things in bills that have nothing to do with the bill in it's original form. We almost need a Constitutional Amendment to fix this. Even if we do vote to do this, we should still drill and refine. I don't care if it does take 5 or even 10 years to make a difference. That was the same excuse Clinton made for failing to drill over 10 years ago. I'm not accepting that kind of short sighted argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 DO UNTO OTHERSOK, my mistake. I have to remember that there really are people who believe the world is less than, oh let's say one million years old and therefore you beleive that God has hidden oil in the ground for us to find... because we needed something to do with our time. For the rest of us, why waste precious time waiting 10 years for oil from the continental shelf or ANWR when we could use that time to create entire industries in alternative energy sources. We already have plenty of oil in the USA if we stop using it for fuel so opening up MORE land to drilling won't help at all. BUTERO I do believe in the Bible and the Genesis account of creation. Do you? After all, this is a Christian web-site, so that shouldn't come as a surprise that some of us actually believe scripture, and place it above science. We don't have to waste time, period. I have no problem with using solar and wind power. I have no problem with seeking alternative fuels. I am ok with nuclear power, so long as they are protected from possible acts of terror. At the same time, I also support drilling everywhere oil is available in America, and building new refineries. In other words, my solution is nothing is off the table. Bill Clinton used the same 10 year excuse more than 10 years ago. That excuse won't work anymore. DO UNTO OTHERS I noticed that the 3 or 4 of you who just want to drill drill drill never acknowledged the FACT that drilling off the coast or in ANWR will not lower gas prices. Even though you use the bumper sticker which conflates drilling with lowering gas prices. BUTERO If drilling off ANWAR won't lower gas prices, then why did Bill Clinton do something that would have far less impact than that to lower prices, take oil from strategic reserves? Why did Congress stop sending money to strategic reserves? It was to increase the supply to the general public, because when you have a greater supply, prices go down. Everyone knows that, even Democrats. One time, they say prices won't be affected for 10 years, and another they claim they won't be lowered at all if we drill in more areas. This is a flat out lie, and everyone knows it. DO UNTO OTHERS 1) Oh, you mean you believe whatever a politician says? How do you know Mcflipper read the Bill? Maybe a staffer read it or some of it and gave him a synopsys or maybe he just went against it on the advise of another Senator. The point being that your don't know and therefore, if you're going to take a position one way or the other, shouldn't you be more informed than just - a politician said it was so - 2) So it's your claim that conservatives don't do this? BUTERO If Congress wants this loophole closed, they should have one bill that addresses the loophole only, without anything else in it. Then, when a vote is taken, we will have a true idea of who supports it and who opposes it. Having a bill with gobs of other things in it, and then having McCain vote against it proves nothing, except he didn't like something in the bill. I don't care who pulls this kind of trick, it is wrong. Each bill should address one issue. The answer might be a Constitutional Amendment to force change. DO UNTO OTHERS 3) can you provide the evidence that drilling will lower the price of gas? I see no gas lines, in fact in a recent hearing on Capitol Hill which CSpan covered live, the oil company ceo's said "the market is well supplied". We are only at about 80% refining capacity right now so adding more refinerys does nothing for prices. Uh Oh, more truth! BUTERO The more supply you have, the lower the cost. That is why Congress voted to stop sending money to the strategic reserves, which will have far less impact than drilling and refining will. I would like some evidence to show we are only at 80 percent refining capacity. I don't believe that is true. DO UNTO OTHERS 4) Everyone in the know, except for the "drill now" bunch speculates that closing the loop hole allowing speculation will bring the price down. BUTERO I don't know if it will reduce prices or not. I have no problem with trying that as part of an overall solution that includes allowing us to drill wherever oil can be found in America, building more refineries, adding solar, wind and nuclear power, and coal to fuel technologies. I am for doing everything we can to get prices down, hopefully below $2 per gallon again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Even if it does take a while for the oil to come online, I'd like my kids and grandkids to benefit from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted June 26, 2008 BUTERO I do believe in the Bible and the Genesis account of creation. Do you? After all, this is a Christian web-site, so that shouldn't come as a surprise that some of us actually believe scripture, and place it above science. I agree. What is your stand on Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted June 26, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted June 26, 2008 2a) You keep acting like it's Pres. Clintons fault that we are in this mess. Umm... Bush 43 had a rubberstamp congress for the first 6 years of his presidency including while gas prices were starting to rapidly climb. Why didn't the republican party fix the so called "problem during those 6 years? In fact why don't you look back to the Nixon era and let us know how many years since then have republicans either held a veto proof majority and/or the presidency... 3) But you'll accept a stupid one from republicans who did nothing for the last 6 years? It is his fault that he prevented drilling in his presidency. He had both houses of congress, too. This could have been done before Bush 43. BTW, I am still awaiting your response to my post #33. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts