The Green Revolution

[Matthitjah]

P.S.

God created the environment, so you could say he's the ultimate environmentalist.

...........And I would say that Gods primary focus and mission is to Save mankind from damnation.

Joh

[The Lorax]

If you look around, you will see mass pollution, disappearing water supplies, disappearing gas, disappearing forests, spreading deserts and other undeniably NEGATIVE changes with undeniably HUMAN causes. The question is: do you want to look around or is it easier not to?

Most of this is opinion and rhetoric and not proven fact.

Dave, I have a question for you, and I need an honest answer:

Where did you learn what you know about the environment?

[Matthitjah]

If you look around, you will see mass pollution, disappearing water supplies, disappearing gas, disappearing forests, spreading deserts and other undeniably NEGATIVE changes with undeniably HUMAN causes. The question is: do you want to look around or is it easier not to?

Most of this is opinion and rhetoric and not proven fact.

Dave, I have a question for you, and I need an honest answer:

Where did you learn what you know about the environment?

Lorax,

Most of what I have learned that is Rhetoric an unproven fact was from School both minor and major Education. The rest was from the Media.

By the way, It's bad form to call someone ignorant and uneducated in the same thread with less than two pages seperating the assertions.

You know what, there was this time when Jesus was trying to tell me how to operate this Catering business that I own and it just wasnt making any logical sense to me at all. I kept telling Him, "Jesus, I know that you and I are buds and all, but this lowering the nets in midday stuff just ain't gonna work. I've been Cooking for over 20 years now and that just ain't how it's done. Nonetheless, I'll humor you because were friends and what's a Carpenter know about Catering anyways? "

It always ended the same way though. "Jesus I implore you to leave me alone because I am a sinful man."

Shoot, even His Mother and Brothers thought He was going too far with this Son of God, Bread come down from Heaven stuff.

Do you Trust Him? He was a uneducated yocal from Nazarath. I'm sure He didn't know much about the environment either.

Peace,

Dave

[Heiress2theKingdom]

Hello H2thK...welcome to WB!! I have a few comments on what you said...

Just a few thoughts...

1. The Lord placed Adam in charge over the care of all the plants and animals of creation and the bible repeatedly speaks to our stewardship of all that has been given to us (not just money). Therefore, it is our biblical duty to maintain the earth and its creatures. If polar bears and jungle critters weren't important to God, he wouldn't have told Noah to get 2 of EVERYTHING.

Actually, God did NOT place Adam in charge over ALL the plants and animals of creation. God specifically stated that He created the Earth to be used and dominated by man. He placed Adam in charge of a small piece of creation, the Garden of Eden. God told Adam to tend to the Garden...that is hardly a command to maintain the Earth and its creatures. And yes, animals are important to God...but yet Jesus himself said that God holds man in higher regard.

2. Financial issues need to be separated from moral issues. To allow finance to effect your ethical choices is the epitome of greediness and poor prioritization. We need to care about the earth because God entrusted the earth to our CARE...not to our DISPOSAL.

I agree that they should be separated...but that doesn't mean you just throw out the financial issues. I would also disagree that God 'entrusted the Earth to our care.' That is not biblical. In fact, God did leave the Earth to our disposal. He created it for us to use and dominate and subdue. God wants us to be fruitful (that is to produce ALOT), he wants us to multiply (populate the Earth), and have dominion (that is to use, subjugate, subdue) the Earth...to our fulfillment...and His blessing.

3. To say that God is the maintainer of earth and no matter how much we consume he will keep the provisions coming is to deny the true character of God. That is like saying that God loves all people so no one will have the consequences of hell. The bible says "the wages of sin are death." God never promised to keep the earth in its original condition, he gave that responsibility to Adam, thus we have extinct species, and changing landforms in our wonderful world. We have chosen to deface environments to get the oil we rely on, what scripture is there to say we'll not have consequences for plucking this fruit.

You are comparing Gods love for people...to creation. This is exactly the message that the religion of environmentalism preaches. It is false. God loves us MORE than he loves the created thing. And while you are correct that God never promised to keep the Earth in any condition...it is absolutely wrong to think that He left us in charge of keeping it in its original condition. God desires that ALL men come to Him...He has NO such desire for the Earth to last forever. God never said (or intended), "Here is a World with tons of resources....don't touch them, don't use them, and don't mess up the place." God gave us these resources to use, to our benefit...he doesn't care if we displace dirt, and rock, and water to use it. There isn't one shred of biblical evidence that using, or physically damaging the Earth (i.e. dirt, stone, water) incurs God's wrath. God is concerned with men and their souls...everything else is secondary.

see ya round,

axx

Hi Axx,

God delights in all of his creations (see Genesis- he proclaimed everything to be good)...but just because he created us in his image and loves us (humanity) more- as you say, does not mean we are to selfishly absorb the assets of this world for our personal gains. I'm not saying that we should put all creation on an even level with us and fast from water because it isn't accessible. I am saying that God blessed us with the honor of dominion over the earth and charged us with the responsibility of good stewardship. This means using only as necessary, and taking every possible advantage we can to avoid harming the earth and its creatures.

I also agree that the most important thing to God, really is his relationship with his children. In order to reach as many people and generations with the word before Christ's return, I think it is important for Christians to demonstrate that they have concern for future generations. This should start with the most basic things, making sure that there will be enough food, and water for them, and work on towards spiritual provisions.

Do you think we attract people to Christ by denying that there may be a problem with the way we wastefully consume water and energy? Don't you think it would be a heck of a lot more attractive if the Christians were the ones who provided solutions and results for the problems? DeNile /De-Ni-al/ is not just a river in Egypt my friend.

[The Lorax]

By the way, It's bad form to call someone ignorant and uneducated in the same thread with less than two pages seperating the assertions.

I don't think you're ignorant or uneducated. You're well-spoken and probably very bright. But I wont pretend you're an expert on the environment, and that's my point.

What I know about the environment came through undergrad course work and graduate research in the field. I'm no expert, but I know the basics. When a person denies the existence of mass pollution, deforestation, desertification, etc, with a wave of their hand, I become curious. I want to know where they got their misinformation. Also, I'm curious as to how they can be so confident about it. I try to understand their psychology, their motivations, etc, because I want to know how anyone can actually believe such junk in this, the 21st, century.

You know what, there was this time when Jesus was trying to tell me how to operate this Catering business that I own and it just wasnt making any logical sense to me at all. I kept telling Him, "Jesus, I know that you and I are buds and all, but this lowering the nets in midday stuff just ain't gonna work. I've been Cooking for over 20 years now and that just ain't how it's done. Nonetheless, I'll humor you because were friends and what's a Carpenter know about Catering anyways? "

It always ended the same way though. "Jesus I implore you to leave me alone because I am a sinful man."

Shoot, even His Mother and Brothers thought He was going too far with this Son of God, Bread come down from Heaven stuff.

Do you Trust Him? He was a uneducated yocal from Gallilee. I'm sure He didn't know much about the environment either.

I do trust Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am saying that God blessed us with the honor of dominion over the earth and charged us with the responsibility of good stewardship. This means using only as necessary, and taking every possible advantage we can to avoid harming the earth and its creatures.

Actually, God is the steward of the earth, not man.

Adam was originally given stewardship over the Garden, not over all creation. Creation and its maintenance is solely God's responsibility. Where do you find in the Bible that man was given "stewardship over the earth?"

I also agree that the most important thing to God, really is his relationship with his children. In order to reach as many people and generations with the word before Christ's return, I think it is important for Christians to demonstrate that they have concern for future generations. This should start with the most basic things, making sure that there will be enough food, and water for them, and work on towards spiritual provisions.

There has alwasy been enough and there is no shortage, and we are not even on the verge of a shortage.

Do you think we attract people to Christ by denying that there may be a problem with the way we wastefully consume water and energy? Don't you think it would be a heck of a lot more attractive if the Christians were the ones who provided solutions and results for the problems? DeNile /De-Ni-al/ is not just a river in Egypt my friend.

Are people more attracted to Christ because we wear a certain brand of clothing or listen to certain type of music?? My point is that we are incapable of "attracting" people to Christ and we are not even commanded to "attract" people to Jesus in the first place. What are commanded to do is to hold to a moral character that does impede the advancement of the gospel.

People come to Christ because of the leading of the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the gospel, not because you are a consciencious recyler or something.

Trying to pretend that you can using being "green" as hook to attract someone to Christ is at once both lame and futile.

[Heiress2theKingdom]

I am saying that God blessed us with the honor of dominion over the earth and charged us with the responsibility of good stewardship. This means using only as necessary, and taking every possible advantage we can to avoid harming the earth and its creatures.

Actually, God is the steward of the earth, not man.

Adam was originally given stewardship over the Garden, not over all creation. Creation and its maintenance is solely God's responsibility. Where do you find in the Bible that man was given "stewardship over the earth?"

I also agree that the most important thing to God, really is his relationship with his children. In order to reach as many people and generations with the word before Christ's return, I think it is important for Christians to demonstrate that they have concern for future generations. This should start with the most basic things, making sure that there will be enough food, and water for them, and work on towards spiritual provisions.

There has alwasy been enough and there is no shortage, and we are not even on the verge of a shortage.

Do you think we attract people to Christ by denying that there may be a problem with the way we wastefully consume water and energy? Don't you think it would be a heck of a lot more attractive if the Christians were the ones who provided solutions and results for the problems? DeNile /De-Ni-al/ is not just a river in Egypt my friend.

Are people more attracted to Christ because we wear a certain brand of clothing or listen to certain type of music?? My point is that we are incapable of "attracting" people to Christ and we are not even commanded to "attract" people to Jesus in the first place. What are commanded to do is to hold to a moral character that does impede the advancement of the gospel.

People come to Christ because of the leading of the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the gospel, not because you are a consciencious recyler or something.

Trying to pretend that you can using being "green" as hook to attract someone to Christ is at once both lame and futile.

People would be coming to Christ left and right if we were anything like him. But people do not take a stand for the right things in the right way anymore. We are called to be a light, that shines into the darkness. We are supposed to naturally be attractive to others because of our Christ-likeness. Jesus stood up for what is right and what is true. He did not a preach a "every generation is for its own" kind of message.

Its not our devotion to any one problem that hooks people...its the motivation, ingenuity, and dedication to solutions that will. As a church we fail in this area...we point the finger...but don't solve the problems.

The whole Bible exemplifies Christ's passionate pursuit of his people, and throughout the Bible there is a chain of events, each generation's choices bring good or bad consequences on the next. If we do not make wise choices and take responsibility for our over exertion of the earth's resources it will catch up. Perhaps you do not realize this, but almost all of our water supply has been dirtied. Yeah... what comes through your kitchen faucet is wastewater that has been sifted down to microbial levels, diluted by natural bodies of water, and then "purified" with chemicals. At some point...there will be no more diluting.

It is ridiculous to proclaim that there is no problem. That's like saying that if you fill your fridge with groceries at the beginning of the month and winnow away at it for 3 weeks, by the end of the 3 weeks everything will still be plentiful and safe for consumption.

Oh and by the way...God charged all of his GOOD creation to us TO TAKE CARE OF: Genesis 1:28-31 It was our choice whether or not to have a good governance or not...this is only a small part of who I am as a Christian but I want to reign over creation for the better...for we will be judged in the final day for all that we were put in charge of.

28 Then God blessed them and said,

[nebula]

I don't know about you, but I'm excited about it. There's a lot to look forward to:

Disposable plastics that disintegrate in sunlight rather than outlive us.

Landfill waste turning into fuel for cars.

Not relying on oppressive Islamist regimes for fuel.

Crops growing on the roofs of buildings.

Undoing deserts with self-propagating oases.

Skyscrapers powered by frictionless micro-turbines on their surface.

Never having to replace a dead light bulb.

Faster and more fuel efficient planes flying on the edge of the atmosphere and space.

Fiber optic cable piping sunlight deep indoors.

Saving forests by making paper out of weeds.

Otherwise-barren wastelands filled with solar panels, driving entire cities and states.

Special asphalt leeching pollution out of the air.

Replacing toxic, flammable batteries with ultra-capacitors.

Mega-blimps and bullet trains that make for cheap, enjoyable travel.

Never seeing smog again.

These aren't fantasies. All these technologies exist, either on the market or in development. I can't wait.

Lorax -

I've been avoiding this thread . . . because I knew there would be a debate, and there wouldn't be anything new with it. But a convo with someone inspired me to take a look at what was going on in here.

Well, after reading a bit, I decided that I'd mention a little observation I had on the cycle of this debate.

As I read your list, I truly think this stuff is great! And I hope the technology comes through soon - for, yes, I love the great outdoors, and I hate the destruction of local ecologies. I do believe the most ideal method of harvesting our planet's resources is by somehow developing a symbiotic relationship of sorts, where both sides benefit rather than one side getting worse.

That being said, I appreciate the concern being addressed by the others.

Maybe for once we would like to see you get just as excited over a lost soul being saved as we see you expressing excitement over environmental progress. Maybe you do get excited about salvation, I don't know; I just can't say that any of us have seen it.

No, I'm not asking you to have to defend your . . . faith? . . . . It would just be refreshing to see a little passion and love for Jesus being expressed once in a while - like in other threads?

You see, Worthy Boards was founded to be a ministry, to spread the Gospel of Jesus. It's a place also for believers to gather and grow together in the Lord. And so, yes, although we do talk about other things, it's really cool to once in a while share our bond of fellowship in the Lord with the ones we often butt heads with in other areas.

So, really, this is all we are asking - come share our bond of unity in Jesus. Let us see your expression of love for the Lord. Not to prove anything, but just to share the bond of unity with you once in a while.

[nebula]

People would be coming to Christ left and right if we were anything like him.

You are correct. We need to be more like Jesus.

And what was Jesus like?

17 ... And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

(Luke 4)

But people do not take a stand for the right things in the right way anymore. We are called to be a light, that shines into the darkness. We are supposed to naturally be attractive to others because of our Christ-likeness. Jesus stood up for what is right and what is true. He did not a preach a "every generation is for its own" kind of message.

Its not our devotion to any one problem that hooks people...its the motivation, ingenuity, and dedication to solutions that will. As a church we fail in this area...we point the finger...but don't solve the problems.

At the same time, Jesus was rejected, accused of being demon-possessed, almost stoned, thrown out of synagogues, . . . .

Granted, I agree that we do need to be more proactive in putting hands and feet to the Gospel, though.

The whole Bible exemplifies Christ's passionate pursuit of his people, and throughout the Bible there is a chain of events, each generation's choices bring good or bad consequences on the next. If we do not make wise choices and take responsibility for our over exertion of the earth's resources it will catch up....

Well, I do share your concern about the Earth's resources. However, I fail to see this connection between Christ's pursuit of His people with the choices of each generation.

[Guest man]

animals are important to God...but yet Jesus himself said that God holds man in higher regard.