If God is omnipotent and all knowing?

[Rick-Parker]

Still waiting for scripture from truthbringer to prove his position. Truthfirst, where is the scripture to prove what you say is true? I posted many scriptures which teach the exact opposite of what you 2 are "teaching" (see post #65).

[TruthFirst]

Still waiting for scripture from truthbringer to prove his position. Truthfirst, where is the scripture to prove what you say is true? I posted many scriptures which teach the exact opposite of what you 2 are "teaching" (see post #65).

I'm a busy guy but I will get at it.

Cheers

[TruthFirst]

[truthbringer]

By the way where is the scripture to support this statement. "God is out of time"

Your last sentence was uncalled for bro. Not much love there.

Isaiah 46:9-10

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

Before the mountains were born

or you brought forth the earth and the world,

from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Isa 57:15

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 21:6

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

If God dwells within time, then He is subject to its restraints, I say that he is not.

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day,

How clearer could we be told that human time has no meaning for God?

What I would ask is for some support that God is constrained or exist within our "time".

But please give us the passages that show that God does not know everything first, that is a much bigger theological issue.

as for the last statement of the Brandon's Popo, while it might have been harsh, he, like I, believe that the idea that God is not all knowing is a heresy, and as such there really should not be any love for such statements.

None of those scriptures show God knew things before that world was created. The nearest is, "Frome the begining of the world".

[truthbringer]

I am a believer, but am new so I have a question.

If God knows past, present, and future then He knew when He created Adam and Eve that they would sin? But reading Genesis, it doesn't seem so.

If He knew they would sin, and then why did He create them and then allow them to procreate?

Also, if God is omnipotent, then He knows who is going to choose to accept Jesus into their hearts and who will reject Him, how is this a choice and why does He continue to allow life to continue?

Sometimes, to me, it makes no sense that we have this choice to make, but in the end it doesn't matter since He already knows our decision.

I mean, how can He desire and long for us to come to Him, when He already knows who will and who wont.

Help?

The Bible says that God has the capasity to forget our sins and not to remember them any more.

The Bible also more than indecates that God doesnt know all things, Just like God can forget our sins, He has the capasity to chose not to know everything.

The Bible clearly teaches that nothing escapes the eye of the Lord and nothing is hide from His eye. He knew all before the world was even created. Open theism is a deadly doctrine.

I dont teach Theism, I just tell what the word says, If you werent ignorant you'll see it to.

Theism may be a deadly doctrine, but your view of God makes God evil. STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT.

The Bible Indicates that God didn't know cirtain things, where does ithe Bible say God knew all things before the world was created.

Edited September 27, 2008 by truthbringer

[Godfearer]

I am a believer, but am new so I have a question.

If God knows past, present, and future then He knew when He created Adam and Eve that they would sin? But reading Genesis, it doesn't seem so.

If He knew they would sin, and then why did He create them and then allow them to procreate?

Also, if God is omnipotent, then He knows who is going to choose to accept Jesus into their hearts and who will reject Him, how is this a choice and why does He continue to allow life to continue?

Sometimes, to me, it makes no sense that we have this choice to make, but in the end it doesn't matter since He already knows our decision.

I mean, how can He desire and long for us to come to Him, when He already knows who will and who wont.

Help?

just cuz he knows dont mean we dont have a choice. God is just that awesome. and we are just not that awesome.

whats important is you make the right choice. choose life. Jesus is life.

hang in there.

[Rick-Parker]

By the way where is the scripture to support this statement. "God is out of time"

Your last sentence was uncalled for bro. Not much love there.

My last comment was a call to present scripture, the same call that has been made for - how many pages now? Still waiting.

[Godfearer]

there are many places in the bible that say God knows all things. the trying of our faith isnt so God will figure it out. it is for our benifit. i.e. let patience have her perfect work that we would be complete lacking nothing....

there is only one place it says God dont know something. and it isnt the Father. its the Son. it is when Jesus is talking about his return and he says something about no man knows the hour not even the Son but only the Father. its in one of the gospels. ABBA Father knows all. Jesus said i told you all I know. and he calls us friends if we do all that he commands.

if you guys wanna argue about something heres one to get ur goose. (and it is relavant to answering your dispute in this thread) if Jesus is God(and he is The Word made flesh) who did he pray to???

btw if you dont think God knows all, read the book of revelations. (Alpha and Omega)

Edited September 28, 2008 by Godfearer

[TruthFirst]

"omnipresence is the property of being present everywhere, so God does not need to be "in" the rock to be omnipresent, you misunderstand what is omnipresence.

God's power is not limited by the fact he cant create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. It is a logical fallacy for such a thing to exist because God is an infinite being and a rock is a finite object, so logically it cant be so big that God could not lift it. To quote CS Lewis...omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense"

I do understand Omnipresence and I do know that God does not Need to be it the Rock. However God does need to be in our hearts for salvation purposes. And yet He is not in the hearts of those who reject Him, which means He is not present there. God will also not be present in hell. So Omnipresence probably has been poorly defined if we say everywhere because He is obviously not everywhere.

And because the word may be poorly defined and maybe misunderstood then in the same way Omniscience can be misunderstood.

We say God knows everything. Is that the same "everything" as "everywhere" because we know He is not everywhere?

Maybe we should say that God is everywhere He chooses to be. I the same vein maybe we should say God knows everything He chooses to know. Or maybe everything that is knowable.

God does choose to burry our sins in a sea of forgetfulness?

When a man is acquitted in a court of law, you can not bring back those offenses to shed light on new ones. You will be told that those past (acquitted) offenses have no bearing on todays trial. Matter of fact, when a jury is involved, if you bring up the past you can be placed in contempt of court for trying to influence the jury with those past offenses. And as far as I know the persons record is cleansed and the charges are expunged.

So when God chooses to forget my sins, I take Him at his Word and I forget them also.

Yet many people have a hard time to do that. They struggle every day with there past. And because we have such a hard time to forget, we sometimes attribute that same difficulty with God. (BTW I'm not saying this is your case)

"your putting God on a linear time table like ours, God is the Alpha and Omega, he is the begining and end. he is not traped in time like you and I, so he knows what your choice will be because to God you have already made it. The Bible tells us he knows our thoughts, the Bible tells us he knows the words we will say before we say them, the Bible tells us he knows what we will do before he as made us. There is no middle ground on this, either God knows, or he is not God.

"

First of all God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End is human terminology used to express God's Eternal state or being not Omniscience. Yet even the terminology is flawed because God has no beginning and end.

Many people seem to think that God exist outside of time, (there's no scripture to support that).

The Godhead are living in an endless duration of time.

They have successions of thoughts, experiences, volition and chronology of events in Their existence.

Is. (57:15), Ps. (102:24-27) (through) (95:10-11) (40 yrs.), Zec. (1:12) (long),

Heb. (13:8) (Yesterday,today,and forever), Rev. (1:8) (Who is, who was, who is to come)

The Godhead engages in the process of reasoning and decision making and he invites man to even partake in that process.

Gen. (1:26-27) (God reasoning out and deciding on the creation of man),

Is. (1:18) (Come let us reason together),

Is. (55:8-9) (My thoughts are not your thoughts),

Jer. (29:11)(For I know the thoughts I think toward you...),

Jer. (44:21-22) (...did the Lord not remember them and did it not come into His mind).

Our only concept of reasoning is the process of thinking one thought after another in a succession of time and coming to a conclusion, which we did not have at the beginning of the process. There's no hint in scriptures that says God is not actually thinking along with us in the same process of time we are living in. Duration or succession is absolutely necessary to the reasoning process. Our ability to think is just as worthless without duration as a car is without a road.

The Godhead experiences emotional reactions of pleasure, grief, and indignation in accordance with our attitudes and conduct.

Gen. (6:5-6) (And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart)

Gen. (22:12) (And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.)

Psalm (78:38) (But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath) Goes to God changing His mind.

Psalm (78:56) (For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.)

Is. (12:1) ( O LORD, I will praise You; Though You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me.)

Eze. (12:42) (So I will lay to rest My fury toward you, and My jealousy shall depart from you. I will be quiet, and be angry no more.)

Zep.(3:17) The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing)

Luke (15:7) (I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.)

These verses among many others not quoted show the variableness of Divine experiences and emotions in response to man's treatment of Him and His commandments. We see great climaxes of happiness and grief based on man's obedience or rebellion. God controls His vindictive emotions and manifests wrath only in righteous judgement in His responsibility as the Moral Governor of the Universe.

The Godhead are said to perform specific actions at definite periods or instants in a succession of time. Gen. (2:3), Ex. (20:1), (31:17) He. (4:4), De. (2:25), Josh. (10:14)

God exist in a duration or succession of time, so that He can have new thoughts, make new decisions, perform acts of unspeakable wisdom, and then look back on His works and have Divine complacency that they are "very good" and be "refreshed" by contemplation --- and all is natural and highly exciting.

The incarnation of the Lord into humanity brought about changes and experiences in the inter-personal relations of the Godhead which cannot be conceived f apart from a succession of time or true chronology of events. You can not have the Birth, the Baptism, the Transfiguration, the exchange at the cross, the Resurrection outside of time. Jesus progressed through time and so did the rest of the Godhead in conjunction with Jesus' experiences.

God has prophesied into the future and stated that He will bring about events and judgments that have yet to be fulfilled and that will require the process of time to accomplish them.

The theological dogma that God is living an "eternal now", or that time or succession is not an element in the Divine existence, is evidently a philosophical rather than Biblical concept.

The Bible presents God as a living Being who walks or dwells with them, performs acts at definite times, who rests, observes, thinks and is reasoned with, is grieved, is jealous, is provoked to anger and then causes His wrath to abate and rest, is moved with compassion, who forgives and comforts, delights and rejoices, hearkens unto men, repents, changes His plans, makes new decisions, etc. These various acts, states of mind, or experiences obviously conflict and cannot coexist at the same instant, and thus require the chronological element of time for their occurrence.

God is "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity", whose "years are throughout all generations" and which "shall have no end."

"the word grieved in this case does not mean sorrow, it means to oppress or wrong. The phrase "to be be grieved" has more than just the meaning to be sadend."

I will not comment on your attempt to redefine the word Grief or to be grieved, anyone who has lost something precious or someone knows what the word means and it is no different for God. Check your Hebrew and Greek lexicons and they will lay weight to what I say. I am "sorry" you can not see this.

---*In Genesis 6 God says He repented of creating man. REPENTED. Now think of it, if you always knew that man's sin was going to be that bad then you would not create him in the first place thus nullifying the need to repent.

And please don't say that God went through the whole process so that Jesus could come and die on the cross to show His great glory. That does not give answer to the word repent, it is neither the reason why Jesus came (Not to show God's glory but for redemption purposes) and it also goes against what Paul teaches: "Shall we sin so that grace may abound" NO.*---

"no, it really does not go against Paul at all."

Sorry just because you say it doesn't go against Paul, doesn't mean that you're right.

We believe that two wrongs don't make a right or that the end doesn't justify the means and that is what Paul is saying and he was right.

God does not need to show His Power, Glory, Sovereignty to anyone nor does He need to orchestrate a whole scenario of death, sin, hell to prove Himself.

---*Did Jesus know the hour of the end times, NO, this was reserved unto the Father. (What are you saying only the Father knew?) Yes in the council of the Godhead it was decided that only the Father would know. Was Jesus sore about that, did He kick up a stink? NO He and the H-S both love the Father implicitly and trust Him unreservedly, they have no problem in leaving that decision in His hands.*---

"Jesus for a time gave up the use of his divine attributes so that he could accomplish the task before him. And even if "only the Father" knew, then God still knew and there is no knowldge that God did not have."

Except that clearly Jesus and The Spirit both chose not to know and they are part of the Godhead. Does that diminish them in any way? None whatsoever.

---*Jeremiah (32:35) God knew that Israel were sinful, idolatrous, stiff-necked but to actually take your own sons and daughters and throw them into the fires of Molech.

"Neither did the thought enter my mind that you would commit such a sin."

"and they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." KJV*---

You are reading the verse wrong...what did not enter his mind was to command them to do such things, not that they would not do them. Proper sentence construction, the words "neither came it into my mind" refer to the part prior to them, not the ones after based on the comma usage.

I am not reading this verse wrong. You are using semantics to ignore the Truth that is stated.

Let me help you.

KJV. "... to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

NKJV "... to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

[TruthFirst]

By the way where is the scripture to support this statement. "God is out of time"

Your last sentence was uncalled for bro. Not much love there.

as for the last statement of the Brandon's Popo, while it might have been harsh, he, like I, believe that the idea that God is not all knowing is a heresy, and as such there really should not be any love for such statements.

Somehow that doesn't ring right with loving your enemies.