Sinlessness

[Guest Calamity]

keslc, let me see if I can be any clearer on what I see wrong here, then I probably should stop.

First, you say this:

My stance this entire thread has been that I believe people do not HAVE to sin.

Then, later, you say this:

Perhaps the thread should be titled , "can we stop sinning". (which I believe yes, with Christ's help, we can)

This - to me definitely sounds like you believe (as some others have said), that we can reach a point of SINLESSNESS while still in the flesh. To stop sinning, or ceasing to sin, means a state of SINESSNESS, don't you agree?

Then, you say:

Shadow, I {don't think anyone} am not claiming the doctrine of "sinlessness", meaning we've reached perfection never to sin even once more.

Which, to me, totally contradicts the first two quotes. Even if you're saying you (or others) have not reached that state of sinlessness yet, you are saying it is possible to do so. Which is a contradiction to what you said before. That's where I have a problem. Hope this is clear.

[AllforJesustheLord]

Have you read the scriptures I gave about perfection, you can look back if you want to.

[keslc]

keslc, let me see if I can be any clearer on what I see wrong  here, then I probably should stop.

First, you say this:

My stance this entire thread has been that I believe people do not HAVE to sin.

Then, later, you say this:

Perhaps the thread should be titled , "can we stop sinning". (which I believe yes, with Christ's help, we can)

This - to me definitely sounds like you believe (as some others have said), that we can reach a point of SINLESSNESS while still in the flesh. To stop sinning, or ceasing to sin, means a state of SINESSNESS, don't you agree?

Then, you say:

Shadow, I {don't think anyone} am not claiming the doctrine of "sinlessness", meaning we've reached perfection never to sin even once more.

Which, to me, totally contradicts the first two quotes. Even if you're saying you (or others) have not reached that state of sinlessness yet, you are saying it is possible to do so. Which is a contradiction to what you said before. That's where I have a problem. Hope this is clear.

No, you are misunderstanding the first two quotes. I've tried several times to clarify them for you. I know no other way to say it than I already have. I did not contradict myself, please reread my last to posts referring to what I meant by those first two quotes. I DO NOT BELIEVE I (OR ANYONE) CAN BE SINLESS, however, we do not need to continue in deliberate sin as we did before we were saved. YES, I make mistakes, so does everyone else. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

Edited June 2, 2004 by keslc

[Catsmeow]

Just a note on this topic...

God calls us, "children" and as children, I doubt if any of us have the full realization of what sin is except through growth and maturation.

Certainly, a two-year old doesn't comprehend his actions fully ...since his cognitive development is limited.

Likewise, as children...we grow "spiritually" and as we do we begin to develop a greater spiritual understanding of right and wrong.

We grow. As we grow, we develop a deeper understanding of what God wants and expects of us.

We never really reach perfection apart from having Christ's perfection imputed to our accounts...

But we DO grow and mature and become more and more LIKE Christ...I don't believe anyone in this life actually reaches perfection ...and we sin, if not in deed, in lack of deed or in thought.

We may neglect to do all we should do at times; we may think thoughts which are selfish and regarded by God as sinful; we may do or fail to do many things we should.

God didn't say WE have to be "perfect" ...but we become perfect in His sight through faith in His Son...not on our own effort.

I'm in agreement with you that we should aspire and strive continually with the help and grace of the Holy Spirit to become "perfect" and "sin not"....but that is always our "goal" and objective.

Reverend David Wilkerson, (Time's Square Church; Teen Challenge, etc), himself says that he's constantly growing and learning and being "refined"....

We desire to live holy lives but we have to remember that God reveals more and more of what He expects of His growing children so our awareness of sin increases as we mature.

A parent wouldn't have the same expectations of a 4 year old as they would a 14 year old...Why? Time determines experience and ability to comprehend and develop an awareness of expectations.

God expects us to grow and mature...some of us do; some don't.

*(Hint: Ever known anyone who was a Christian "all their life" and still acted like they were in diapers..spiritually?).

[Guest noelmaude]

Mt 12:38

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."

Mt 12:39

But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Mt 16:1

Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven.

Mt 16:4

A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." And He left them and departed.

Lu 9:55 - Show Context

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

here is the sign of jonah. repent for the witnesses of the LORD are coming to destroy you unless you repent and beleive the Gospel of CHRIST.

17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."* 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."*

This is the end time. It is a day of Intollerance. No one with the power of the spirit will beg you to beleive. But if you become real violent against them you might be taken by fire.

It's comming real soon so gird yourself strengthen what you have.

[Guest Calamity]

keslc, let me see if I can be any clearer on what I see wrong

[Adstar]

I agree Calamity, keslcs statements are contradictionary, yes we can be sinless then no one can be sinless. its amazing indeed

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[keslc]

keslc, let me see if I can be any clearer on what I see wrong

Edited June 2, 2004 by keslc

[Guest dove2]

We can be delivered from an addictive sin. Maybe the sin we have been delivered from will never crop up again, however, we can never be sin free until Jesus returns. I can't believe there are 9 people on here that believe they can acheive a sin free life before Jesus returns.

Do those of you that believe you can be totally free from sin on this earth ever have a bad thought? A person would have to be on their knees 24/7 in order to stay sin free and then you still couldn't. By the time you asked for forgiveness for one sin another would crop up.

I am confused by this thread. It seems as though some of you say you can lead a sinless life, but no one says they do. If it is attainable then at least one person on this board should be able to say they lead a sinless life. I don't know of anyone bold enough to make that statement.

I think maybe shadow, Calamity, Eric, and yes, possibly Cats, and lets not forget Trav would be the closest I know of to claim the ability to be sin free. :il: :hug: Of course, I would think this because they are real treasures in my book.

Had to tease a little there because they are doing great at giving the plain truth. There is no life on this earth that is sin free. We will be some day though when Jesus returns.

[keslc]

We can be delivered from an addictive sin. Maybe the sin we have been delivered from will never crop up again, however, we can never be sin free until Jesus returns. I can't believe there are 9 people on here that believe they can acheive a sin free life before Jesus returns.

Hi there, Dove2, I'm not positive if you are referring to me or not, but if you are here, please show me where I said I believed I could achieve a sin free life. I don't believe I have. I've always admitted my imperfection, my need for forgiveness when I stumble, that I make mistakes, as do we all. The only other point I have tried to make (and some people seem to have run away with in a completely different direction) is that I do not believe christians are slaves to our fleshly desires, that we are incapable of resisting temptation when we turn to Jesus and cling to Him ( 1 Corinthians 10:13). That is why I wrote that post a few pages back to shadow in which I quoted a passage from Romans 8. That was my intention, my belief, where my heart was the entire time. I admit, I wasn't very clear when I originally stated the alleged "contradictory" statements, but what I meant by them is the explanations I later gave to Calamity, not the exact statement in and of itself per se. I just didn't go far enough with them the first time I said them, I suppose, and it was confusing. I am really really trying here, honestly, I do not and never have thought that I can be or am perfect here on earth, my meaning perhaps didn't come out right, but even though I try to explain, things are just getting more messed up. O well, God knows what is in my heart and what my intentions and motivations and meanings were, I guess that is what matters. Thanks!