OSAS, The Whole Story

[Rick-Parker]

Let me put it this way do you believe #1 that if I decided to go back to my old life style of sin that God would refuse to allow me to, or #2 that if I did go back to my old lifestyle of sin, I was never saved in the first place and if I would have died while serving God would have went to hell, or #3 If I went back to my lifestyle of sin, lived the rest of my life in sin, never repentant, and died, I would still go to heaven?

Which one of these OSAS option to you hold to?

I would go with door number 3.

I use my own life as an example. When I was away from God, he was still there with me, there is no doubt of it in my mind. Looking back on my life during that time I can see very clearly the times that he kept me safe. There really is no other explanation for my wife and I being together today other than the guiding hand of my Father in heaven. The odds of so many things falling into place to make it work are beyond comprehension.

Jesus said this in John 10

[nikos]

2 Peter 1:10 - Why would Peter tell us to make our calling and election sure, if it is a sure, irrevocable thing?

1 Corinthians 9:27 - Paul claimed that it was possible that he could be rejected. Why shouldn't we?

1 Corinthians 10:12 - Why would Paul tell those who had an irrevocable salvation to take heed lest they fall?

1 John 2:24 - Why did John say, "If" what you heard from the beginning abides in you you also will abide in the Son and in the Father if it is impossible to do otherwise?

Hebrews 10:26-29 - Is the Hebrew writer wrong in stating that Christians can sin willfully as to have no hope? Not that this passage states that these were "sanctified" but now "insult the Spirit."

2Pet. 2:20, 21- Did Peter speak falsly when he decalred that individuals could be saved and then fall away to a worse state than before their obedience? How could this happen if salvation is irrevocable?

Philip. 4:13; Rev. 3:5 - These passages teach that our names can be written in the Book of Life and that they can also be erased. Surly one would have to be saved to have his name written in the Book of Life. How could one have his name erased if salvation is irrevocable?

1Tim. 4:1-2 - Paul declared that some "will fall away from the faith". What did he mean? You can't fall away from something at which you have never arrived.

1Tim. 1:9 - Paul also stated that some had "suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith." Does this not mean one can have faith and then destroy it?

Lk. 8:1 3- Jesus taught in the parable of the sower that some "hear and receive the word with joy....they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Again how can you fall away from some which you have not arrived? Jesus said it is possible to fall away.

Jn. 15:1-6- In Jesus stated that He is the vine and we are the branches. Note that those who do not "abide," i.e.continue, remain, in the Vine "he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (v.6) Note the condition, "If" you abide in Me, and My word abide in you..." (v. 7). Does this sound like one could be in Christ and then be rejected?

1Cor. 8:11; Rom. 14:13-15 - Notice who it is in these passages who can "perish" and be "destroyed," is it not a brother "for whom Christ died"?

1Cor. 15:1-3 - Why did the apostle speak of the gospel which he had preached in which the Corinthians had "received", in which they also stood, and by which they were also "saved," and then make it conditional based on "if you hold fast to the word." Why did he not say, 'a salvation that will never nor can ever be lost or abandoned'?

[BurnForChrist]

The fact is as I have already proven in this thread whether or not you all will accept it. The Bible simply does not support the doctrine of OSAS matter of fact it teaches just the opposite.

you are adding a requirment for works for salvation, and that is un-Biblical

Actually I am not adding it and it is biblical.

James 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

This does not mean in any way, shape, form or fashion that you must keep your salvation in order to be saved. James condemns the idea, in this passage, that saving faith is separate from good works or that you can have saving faith and not have good works. Rather it is the product, the result or effect of saving faith. In other words the evidence that GOD has saved you and you have believed unto eternal life you will live a new lifestyle in obedience to God. These good works do not merit nor earn salvation for anyone because that would be contrary to what Ephesians 2:8-9 says. But rather the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us who believe. (Romans 4:1-8, Philippians 3:9, & 1st Cor. 1:30).

The Apostle John teaches this in his first epistle in chapter 1 verse 6. It reads, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth," 1John 1:6.

So here he says if we "say" or profess to be Christians and to believe in Jesus Christ and yet live a life contrary to that profession then we are liars. Why? Because if one has truly been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and has believed to everlasting life it is impossible to live a life the same as when he was a lost child of wrath. He does not have and live like an old creature but lives like a new creature because he is a new creature. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

And with this new nature, can it perish? 1st Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." Here it is incontrovertibly taught that the seed which we have been born, cannot perish but will abide and remain. Therefore he cannot fall away and loose his salvation.

Again it says, 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Yet another text that teaches not that one who is born of God lives in sinless perfection but that his lifestyle is not drowned in besetting sins, nor continually practicing sin. Rather he lives a life that "walks in the light" (1 John 1:7). This is the evidence of a new creature, and indeed this he will always do not being able to fall away to loose his salvation because "he has been born of God". And the very same God who has saved that person will keep that person saved because salvation is all about the power of GOD demonstrating the glory of God.

So here is just a few of the many scriptures that teach that "He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ," Philippians 1:6 and that Jesus will not loose the sheep the Father has given Him according to John 6:39.

As Charles Spurgeon said, "If ever it should come to pass, That sheep of Christ might fall away, My fickle, feeble soul, alas! Would fall a thousand times a day."

Burn

Edited September 2, 2008 by BurnForChrist

[Thaddaeus]

Runninggator,

then all hope is lost because the Bible contradicts itself....8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[HisMindinme]

Let's stir the pot a little.

You've come looking for a bone of contention.

James 4:1 From where do wars and fightings among you come? Is it not from this, from your lusts warring in your members?

What are the lusts warring in our members?

Romans 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.

"Wars" --> G4171 πόλεμος polēmos pol'-em-os From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war.

"Fightings" --> G3163 μάχη machē makh'-ay From G3164; a battle, that is, (figuratively) controversy: - fighting, strive, striving.

Thus, battle, fight, war, fighting, strive, striving, controversy, etc. Now, see:

Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.

Gal 5:16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,

Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, that the ones practicing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.

Gal 5:24 But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

Let's stir the pot a little.

"Stir" --> bustle: a rapid active commotion http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=stir

Your own word points to the truth of the heart and intent: WAR. You came here to pick a fight. In doing so, you violate the very thing you claim to be about: Christ. This action of yours is NOT the Mind of Christ. Jesus does not come to stir up trouble (i.e. stir the pot). The ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Your lack of this level of understanding (to me) cast great doubt on any premise following from what you have either written or pointed to (i.e. the article link you provided).

FROM HERE IS A GENERIC COMMENT NOT directed at "Brandon's Popo":

This is precisely what I mean when I in many post point out how Christians are largely unaware of HOW we are broken, how we work (our mechanics - the laws which govern how we work - see Roman 7) and what the Lord is providing as the solution to our problem.

A) Forgiveness of our lifetime of sin (birth to death).

B) A New Mind - reborn, regenerated, transformed, renewed and born again of Spirit, not of flesh. The Mind of Christ, that of the Father living in us, changing our disposition to be like His own, glory-to-glory, measure to measure and parcel by parcel.

I went and read the article and the points lack the underlaying understanding of how we work in our brokenness and what's wrong, much less the solution to it. No understanding of the problem leads to a misunderstanding of the solution. Thus, articles such as this are the result: The best people can get to is "Once Save Always Saved."

Unity and love is having the Mind of Christ in measure formed in us and - if we are to strive - striving for His Mind transforming ours to be of the same disposition as the Father. If we have His Mind and His Way of Thinking, then we have set aside our -- motivated by lusts and sin in our bodies, which has captured and enslaved our minds. The key clue to thoughts, words and actions born of a mind enslaved to lusts is the list found in Galatians 5. Read it, then measure what is said and done, written and spoken against such things to discern the mind from which the sayings and doings are born (from where they arise - to use James word - "Whence cometh _____?").

CLARIFICATION:

To say that Jesus has not come to stir up trouble is to not ignore:

Mat 10:34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35 I came to divide a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a bride against her mother-in-law.

Mat 10:36 "Ones hostile to the man shall be those of his own house." Mic. 7:6

Mat 10:37 The one loving father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one loving son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Mat 10:38 And who does not take up his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

What sword has Jesus brought and what form of division is He intending?

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the darts of the evil one being kindled.

Eph 6:17 Also, take "the helmet of salvation," and the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God;

Eph 6:18 through all prayer and petition, praying at all times in the Spirit, and watching to this same thing with all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints.

This is about having the Mind of Christ in us. Once we have the Spirit indwelling, our minds being regenerated (John 3) and renewed:

Eph 4:22 For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,

Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the new man?

Col 3:5 Then put to death your members (the ones warring against your mind and taking it captive - Romans 7) which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness, which is idolatry;

Col 3:6 on account of which things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,

Col 3:7 among whom you also walked at one time, when you were living in these.

Col 3:8 But now, you also, put off all these things: wrath, anger, malice, evil-speaking, shameful speech out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his practices (see Galatians 5:21 ... the ones practicing ...),

Col 3:10 and having put on the new, having been renewed in full knowledge according to the image of the One creating him,

Col 3:11 where there is no Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.

THIS IS ABOUT YOUR MIND!!!!!!

Either ...

A) ENSLAVED to the lusts of your flesh and sin operating therein ... OR ...

B) RENEWED, regenerated (John 3), transformed (Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.)

We walk in A) Forgiveness for a lifetime of sin ... towards .. what? A license to sin? NO! God forbid it! We walk towards B) A growing measure of the Mind of Christ formed in us -- our new man, a renewed mind, reborn in the image of Christ -- His Mind in us to be like God, which mind is IMPOSSIBLE to violate being like God because it is renewed (in measure).

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?

James could say this as he was striving for the Mind of Christ formed in himself -- putting off the old man of the enslaved to lusts mind and putting on the new mind of Christ made available to him from the Word of God and the indwelling Spirit of God!

Why is this simple thing not understood by so many Christians? BECAUSE -- Fleshly lusts USE and FEED from religious thoughts, doctrines and dogmas as easily and well as from non-religious ones. The flesh and lusts will USE and ENSLAVE the natural mind to have a huge spread of religious thought from which to feed on. What is the clue of this happening?????

Let's stir the pot a little.

Now, you figure it out for yourself if you've been paying attention!!

[BurnForChrist]

It is simple really works outside of faith cannot saved you, faith without works will not justify you. The Bible is clear on both of these subjects and no they are not contradictory to one another.

oh, I agree 100%, but you are the one putting tying works into salvation, not me.

Although good works cannot save you outside of your faith in Christ, your evil works can condemn you whether you have faith in Christ or not.

So let me get this straight, my good works outside of Christ cannot save me outside of my faith in Christ, but my evil works can condemn me even if I have faith or not? So then what saves me? And if my good works are in my faith in Christ does that merit me salvation? If it doesn't then what merits salvation? I think its quite clear that your soteriology is absolutely confusing and man-centered because its faith plus something. If its not faith alone, then Christs sacrifice wasnt enough, even when he said "it is finished," John 19:30.

[HisMindinme]

You are making the same classic mistakes I see made this type of discussion. It's just same recycled nonsense that pops up on this board about every 4 to 6 months or so.

You call it nonsense I call it God's word. I commend all those that stand for God's truth and refute the very dangerous false doctrine of OSAS.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ovedya]

It is simple really works outside of faith cannot saved you, faith without works will not justify you. The Bible is clear on both of these subjects and no they are not contradictory to one another.

Hmm.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And don't forget: "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstrating of His righteousness, in that in His forbearance God passed over the sins that had previously occurred, With a view to the demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time, so that He might be righteous and the One who justifies him who is of the faith of Jesus." (Rom. 3:24-26)

[WayneB]

Closed