Perfect Human

[Osiris]

If Adam and Eve were incapable of sinning, why then did they sin? And since they sinned, where they really perfect?

Thoughts?

Edited June 2, 2004 by Osiris

[BobTriez]

Edit - duplicate post by accident

Edited June 2, 2004 by BobTriez

[BobTriez]

If Adam and  Eve were incapable of sinning, why then did they sin? And since they sinned, where they really perfect?

Thoughts?

They were not incapable - obviously. They were given a choice, just like us. Either follow God, or ignore Him. Sadly, many choose the same mistake to this day.

They were perfect up to the time they sinned. Sin was not in them so their flaw was not the ability or lack thereof to sin, it was subsequent to the choice they made....therefore being their fault and not God's. They ceased to be perfect when they chose to follow their own desires and not the will of God.

Lucifer was created perfect too, but he fell due to his arrogance ( and is now Satan ) -

Isaiah 14:12-14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

God made them ( angels ) perfect, just like man. God can not author sin however nor can He sin. He created beings with a choice to love Him and follow Him or to leave....and that is what hell will be. If you decide you want nothing to do with God ( and He's given you that choice ), that's what will be waiting for you after death - eternity without Him. The fault is ours, not His.

However He provided a way out ( I don't know why, but I'm glad He did )....and all you need to do is turn to Him, repent of your disobedience and He will save you...then there's nothing to fear after death....

Sorry to ramble on, but I asked yesterday if you were a Christian and you said you were not. I felt moved to share His plan of salvation with you.

In Him,

Bob

[Osiris]

They were not incapable - obviously.  They were given a choice, just like us.  Either follow God, or ignore Him.  Sadly, many choose the same mistake to this day.

So, if they were just like us, then what is the difference between being perfect and not perfect?

They were perfect up to the time they sinned.  Sin was not in them so their flaw was not the ability or lack thereof to sin, it was subsequent to the choice they made....therefore being their fault and not God's.  They ceased to be perfect when they chose to follow their own desires and not the will of God.

If they had a flaw why call them perfect?

Lucifer was created perfect too, but he fell due to his arrogance ( and is now Satan ) -

Where did this arrogance come from?

What I mean is, Adam and Eve's sin came from the temptation of Satan, were did Satan's sin originate from? If came from within, then he wasn't perfect to begin with.

God made them ( angels ) perfect, just like man.

The problem is, there is nothing special about being perfect, they can be called sinners since they sin anyways and they have flaws like us.

God can not author sin however nor can He sin.

How about creating a place like Hell? I'd say that is the biggest sin I've ever heard. God commands us not to kill, yet he does it all the time in the Old Testament. Humans can sin, but when God sins, it is not called sin because God does it? riiiiight..

He created beings with a choice to love Him and follow Him or to leave....and that is what hell will be.

What is the difference between this and a teen with issues that threatens his girlfriend to love him or he will kill her? Oh yeah, I forgot, if God does it, it is okay.

If you decide you want nothing to do with God ( and He's given you that choice ), that's what will be waiting for you after death - eternity without Him.  The fault is ours, not His.

No one is at fault. You see, most unbelievers don't believe because they can't believe. Just like you cannot believe in the existance of Santa Claus, can you honestly tell me that you can make yourself believe in Santa Claus and wait for him every christmas to come down the chimney?

Now, since you can't believe in Santa Claus, is it your fault you don't believe in him?

The answer is, no it is not your fault you don't believe in Santa Claus, same as it is not an unbeliever's fault for not believing.

However He provided a way out ( I don't know why, but I'm glad He did )....and all you need to do is turn to Him, repent of your disobedience and He will save you...then there's nothing to fear after death....

Sorry to ramble on, but I asked yesterday if you were a Christian and you said you were not.  I felt moved to share His plan of salvation with you.

In Him,

Bob

You should do a research on Krishna, he also gave his life to save humanity, his mother was named Meri, Krishna was also said to be the son of God, was perfect, performed many miracles and many other things similar to Jesus. Krishna's story is much older than the story of Jesus.

Also many of the things Jesus taught had been said by many philosophers of the past such as "Love your enemies", "Do unto others...", so they are not really that original.

[BobTriez]

Hi Osiris,

So, if they were just like us, then what is the difference between being perfect and not perfect?

You misread....they were not just like us at first, they were perfect, in God's image....what is similar is that just like them we are in God's image and have a choice to obey or to ignore God...we've all chosen to ignore Him through their sin and thus we need a redeemer.

If they had a flaw why call them perfect?

Again, you misunderstood me. I didn't say they had a flaw, what I said was "Sin was not in them so their flaw was not the ability or lack thereof to sin, " Maybe I should have reworded that a bit better. They didn't have a flaw is what I was trying to convey ( because sin was not in them )

then I said - "it was subsequent to the choice they made" meaning their sin was due to their choice. That is on them, not God.

Where did this arrogance come from?

What I mean is, Adam and Eve's sin came from the temptation of Satan, were did Satan's sin originate from? If came from within, then he wasn't perfect to begin with

That is a question that man has been trying to answer for a long time. What we know is Lucifer was very beautiful. And due to his beauty & power he felt he should be God. God did not make him feel this way, but God did give him free will as well. God can maintain His sovereignty and still allow freewill at the same time. The actions still are the responsibility of the creature.

The problem is, there is nothing special about being perfect, they can be called sinners since they sin anyways and they have flaws like us

I don't follow you here....the angels are perfect to this day and do not sin. There is something very special about being perfect....God is perfect and expects nothing less than perfection from His creatures.

How about creating a place like Hell? I'd say that is the biggest sin I've ever heard. God commands us not to kill, yet he does it all the time in the Old Testament. Humans can sin, but when God sins, it is not called sin because God does it? riiiiight..

First, hell was designed/made whatever you want to say for Satan and his followers. As far as man is concerned, hell is eternal separation from God. If you reject God, God will put you where you want to be - away from Him. That will be hell.

I think your statement is based on a false premise...and that would be God owes us something. He doesn't. In fact, being a perfect and just God, it would be wrong if He did not send us to hell. That is what we deserve. Only One could take the place of that which we deserve, and that is Jesus. Since He is perfect, He died for us - that way the justice of God is served and the penalty has been paid - the penalty we should have to bear.

What is the difference between this and a teen with issues that threatens his girlfriend to love him or he will kill her? Oh yeah, I forgot, if God does it, it is okay.

Two answers...first, you are correct that He is God and can do what He wants ( Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. ) But there's more to this...the teen has issues, God does not. God doesn't threaten you, He tells you to either follow Him or leave him. If you leave, you will have nothing to do with Him and that will be on you...See, in your scenario, the boyfriend is at fault, but with God, He is not. You make the choice.

No one is at fault. You see, most unbelievers don't believe because they can't believe. Just like you cannot believe in the existence of Santa Claus, can you honestly tell me that you can make yourself believe in Santa Claus and wait for him every christmas to come down the chimney?

Now, since you can't believe in Santa Claus, is it your fault you don't believe in him?

The answer is, no it is not your fault you don't believe in Santa Claus, same as it is not an unbeliever's fault for not believing.

Again, you are basing this on a false premise - being that God does not exist; which in fact He does. I can't argue your point when you do not believe in something real.

You should do a research on Krishna, he also gave his life to save humanity,

Big difference....who's in Krishna's grave ? You guessed it - Krishna. Who's in Jesus' grave ? No one! Jesus conquered death and came back...

Also many of the things Jesus taught had been said by many philosophers of the past such as "Love your enemies", "Do unto others...", so they are not really that original.

But where did they get their sense of morality from ? If man evolved, of what worth are we ? Why care about anyone else ? We're just a bunch of matter thrown together following the "laws of nature". If we are created...no that put's a whole new light on the subject....now we have some worth and have a reason to be kind to others.

I hope I answered to your satisfaction...if not, ask again. Someone around here can help if I can't

In Him,

Bob

[Guest VanillaGorilla]

Is God perfect? If he is didn't he see ( since he is all knowing ) how we would abuse the special privilages of Free-Will?

Since you claim god created the earth is it perfect? No as I have pointed out millions of times the world claims more natural lifes annually than any other source in history thru storms and droughts.

Someone once responded to these posts by "don't blame the designer" well I wouldn't if the designer couldn't see into the future, since he is all knowing and made a mistake in the design that claims millions of lifes I would consider that a minor mistake. Just a thought...

[BobTriez]

Someone once responded to these posts by "don't blame the designer" well I wouldn't if the designer couldn't see into the future, since he is all knowing and made a mistake in the design that claims millions of lifes I would consider that a minor mistake.  Just a thought...

I would respond to this with the words of Paul -

Romans 9:19-21

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

We have no business questioning the motives of God....

This I do know in response to your question about "is the earth perfect" - As I've said many times, MAN brought death and decay into the world....it is OUR fault, not His. Adam wrecked it ( Romans 5:12 & 1 Corinthians 15:22 ).

I don't know what more I can say to you VG...if you resist the Words of the Bible, I can't help you....God can if you seek Him out though.

In Him,

Bob

[Guest VanillaGorilla]

Exactly how is man responsible for weather? For intense rainfall, hailstorms, lightning strikes, ice ages, tornados, droughts, floods, volcanic eruptions, tsunami's avalanche's, cyclone's, landslides or earthquakes? How in the world did you come to the conculsion we (humans) are responsible for the weather???

Please explain...

[Osiris]

Hi Osiris,

So, if they were just like us, then what is the difference between being perfect and not perfect?

You misread....they were not just like us at first, they were perfect, in God's image....what is similar is that just like them we are in God's image and have a choice to obey or to ignore God...we've all chosen to ignore Him through their sin and thus we need a redeemer.

You did not answer how perfect humans are different from us.

You said they were perfect, but that does not answer how. You said they were made in God's image, and that we are made in God's image, no difference. They had a choice to obey, we have a choice to obey and we all have chosen to ignore him.

Hmm, through out all that, I didn't see a single difference between perfect and imperfect humans.

If they had a flaw why call them perfect?

Again, you misunderstood me. I didn't say they had a flaw, what I said was "Sin was not in them so their flaw was not the ability or lack thereof to sin, " Maybe I should have reworded that a bit better. They didn't have a flaw is what I was trying to convey ( because sin was not in them )

then I said - "it was subsequent to the choice they made" meaning their sin was due to their choice. That is on them, not God.

Perfect humans that sin... hmm, makes me question if they were perfect in the first place.

Where did this arrogance come from?

What I mean is, Adam and Eve's sin came from the temptation of Satan, were did Satan's sin originate from? If came from within, then he wasn't perfect to begin with

That is a question that man has been trying to answer for a long time. What we know is Lucifer was very beautiful. And due to his beauty & power he felt he should be God. God did not make him feel this way, but God did give him free will as well. God can maintain His sovereignty and still allow freewill at the same time. The actions still are the responsibility of the creature.

Like I said, if Satan's sin originated from within, then he wasn't perfect.

And about Satan having free will, can you prove that free will exists?

The problem is, there is nothing special about being perfect, they can be called sinners since they sin anyways and they have flaws like us

I don't follow you here....the angels are perfect to this day and do not sin. There is something very special about being perfect....God is perfect and expects nothing less than perfection from His creatures.

adam and eve were perfect they sinned, plus you didn't tell me what the difference with being perfect and imperfect was.

God is perfect and expects nothing less than perfection?

Cain killed.... God killed(supposedly still kills)....

God does not approve of Cain, but does God approve of himself?

How about creating a place like Hell? I'd say that is the biggest sin I've ever heard. God commands us not to kill, yet he does it all the time in the Old Testament. Humans can sin, but when God sins, it is not called sin because God does it? riiiiight..

First, hell was designed/made whatever you want to say for Satan and his followers. As far as man is concerned, hell is eternal separation from God. If you reject God, God will put you where you want to be - away from Him. That will be hell.

What you are saying is, if you don't believe in God (and whats worst belief is not a choice to unbelievers) god will torture you for eternity, because that's what you want; to be tortured for eternity.

Hmm., what kind of ideology are you running here? Do you think unbelievers want to be tortured for eternity?

I think your statement is based on a false premise...and that would be God owes us something.  He doesn't.  In fact, being a perfect and just God, it would be wrong if He did not send us to hell.  That is what we deserve.  Only One could take the place of that which we deserve, and that is Jesus.  Since He is perfect, He died for us - that way the justice of God is served and the penalty has been paid - the penalty we should have to bear.

You are right, if God does exist, he doesn't owe us anything. But if you remember a gift does not come with strings attached! How is it that he gives us the gift of life and if we don't believe in him he will take that gift away? Kind of childish don't you think?

Yeah, but that is what unbelievers deserve, to have their gift be taken away for having wrong opinions about religion. 'Opinions', god might as well take the gift away on opinions such as liking a favorite food.

The only reason unbelievers don't believe is because God hasn't made himself known; if he exists, he's been hiding.

And if you say the bible is a revelation of God to us. Why not the Qu'ran or the book of mormon?

What is the difference between this and a teen with issues that threatens his girlfriend to love him or he will kill her? Oh yeah, I forgot, if God does it, it is okay.

Two answers...first, you are correct that He is God and can do what He wants ( Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. ) But there's more to this...the teen has issues, God does not.

Ordering killing, raping, genocides in the old testament is not issues?

I would say a teen would have less issues than that....

God doesn't threaten you, He tells you to either follow Him or leave him.  If you leave, you will have nothing to do with Him and that will be on you...

Ok, who does the throwing of that individual who does not believe in to hell?

I guess I can put it that way also,

The teenager doesn't threaten the girlfriend, he tells her to either follow him or leave him. If she leaves she will have nothing to do with him and that will be on her.

See, in your scenario, the boyfriend is at fault, but with God, He is not.  You make the choice.

See, in your scenario, God is at fault for throwing unbelievers to eternal torture, but with the teenager, he is not at fault. She makes the choice.

Hmmm... but really, I see no difference with the teenager with issues and God. The only thing I see is that you worded it to cover God throwing unbelievers to Hell and make it sound nice that we choose to throw ourselves into eternal torture.

No one is at fault. You see, most unbelievers don't believe because they can't believe. Just like you cannot believe in the existence of Santa Claus, can you honestly tell me that you can make yourself believe in Santa Claus and wait for him every christmas to come down the chimney?

Now, since you can't believe in Santa Claus, is it your fault you don't believe in him?

The answer is, no it is not your fault you don't believe in Santa Claus, same as it is not an unbeliever's fault for not believing.

Again, you are basing this on a false premise - being that God does not exist; which in fact He does. I can't argue your point when you do not believe in something real.

God in fact exists? Where is the proof of that? You have as much proof for God's existance as you have for Santa's existance. If it was a fact that God existed, I wouldn't be an unbeliever, no one would be an unbeliever because everyone would know God exists.

You should do a research on Krishna, he also gave his life to save humanity,

Big difference....who's in Krishna's grave ? You guessed it - Krishna. Who's in Jesus' grave ? No one! Jesus conquered death and came back...

Nope, he arose as well.

Also many of the things Jesus taught had been said by many philosophers of the past such as "Love your enemies", "Do unto others...", so they are not really that original.

But where did they get their sense of morality from ?

Do you think if someone is intelligent, they would not know what to them right and wrong might be?

Where does my cat get it's sense to not scratch my face when I am petting it? I guess we are much smarter than a cat, you do that math.

If man evolved, of what worth are we ?

Irrelevant..., this is the same as asking, if I have fingers, what worth are they if I don't know sign language?

Why care about anyone else ?

Because we are intelligent, we know darn right to care for the ones that provide food for us, and for the ones that protect us, and for the ones we have fun with and love. We are social.

If we don't care about anyone else, how will we succeed/survive when lions who are not as intelligent than us work together?

If for any chance it is proven that God doesn't exist, will you go on a killing rampage? If yes, you have some serious issues.

We're just a bunch of matter thrown together following the "laws of nature".  If we are created...no that put's a whole new light on the subject....now we have some worth and have a reason to be kind to others.

I see something weird here.

If an unbeliever is kind to others, and doesn't expect a reward and a religious person is kind to others, and expects a reward. Which one is honest about them being kind to others? I'd say the unbeliever.

I hope I answered to your satisfaction...if not, ask again.  Someone around here can help if I can't 

In Him,

Bob

Thank you Bob, but unfortunately I did have questions after your posts.

[BobTriez]

Ok, let me try again ( I never claimed to have all the answers ).....

You did not answer how perfect humans are different from us.

You said they were perfect, but that does not answer how. You said they were made in God's image, and that we are made in God's image, no difference. They had a choice to obey, we have a choice to obey and we all have chosen to ignore him.

Hmm, through out all that, I didn't see a single difference between perfect and imperfect humans/

That difference was they were without sin. Until we are made sinless again, we'll never know what that was like for them. I've never experienced sinlessness, so I'm not in a position to answer that....it's not a cop out, I simply can't speak for something I have no experience with. I'm sure there were things unspeakable that they were able to experience while in perfection. One thing the Bible does mention, is they walked in the garden with God every evening....I can't even begin to think what that would be like....to ask questions, talk, laugh, etc.

Perfect humans that sin...

No, sinful humans that were once perfect but chose to rebel. A potter makes a perfect ornament and gives it to someone with instructions not to run while holding it or they'll break it...now if that new owner is irresponsible with the piece of art, runs and drops it, who's fault is it ? The potter or the irresponsible one who was entrusted with the piece of art ? That in no way reflects on the potter does it ?

Like I said, if Satan's sin originated from within, then he wasn't perfect.

Same as above...you can't blame the designer.

God is perfect and expects nothing less than perfection?

Cain killed.... God killed(supposedly still kills)....

God does not approve of Cain, but does God approve of himself?

God kills ? No, man kills. Remember, man brought death into the world and death is a product of man, not God ( Romans 5:12 ) And why didn't God approve of Cain ? Let's take a look...

Genesis 4:1-7

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

God asked Cain the same question you did, and He answered the question in verse 7. Cain brought it upon Himself.

And yes, God does approve of Himself....He's God, why shouldn't He ? He's perfect, holy and is worthy of praise...I'd say that makes Him worthy to be in approval of Himself.

What you are saying is, if you don't believe in God (and whats worst belief is not a choice to unbelievers) god will torture you for eternity, because that's what you want; to be tortured for eternity.

Hmm., what kind of ideology are you running here? Do you think unbelievers want to be tortured for eternity

I'm not saying that at all. You'll be torturing yourself. If you choose to reject God, then you will get what you asked for....why do you complain ? You want to ignore His word, therefore you bring condemnation upon yourself. You sound like Cain....how about you take God's answer to that question from Genesis 4:7 as seen above ?

Besides, God doesn't want anyone to go to hell....

2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

How is it that he gives us the gift of life and if we don't believe in him he will take that gift away

You still don't understand. God never took anything away that He shouldn't have. He warned Adam that if he ate the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he would die. God gave a choice to Adam. Adam messed it up. You need to understand that God is the giver of life. God is not unjust for condemning anyone - we deserve it because we are sinners. All of us.

The only reason unbelievers don't believe is because God hasn't made himself known; if he exists, he's been hiding

No, He's reveled Himself to us. We chose to separate ourselves from God anyway, but He still made a way for us to come back to Him. You have the Bible & the prophets in the Bible to read & believe....do you think you'd believe if God appeared to you ?

Let's see what the Bible says....

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Ordering killing, raping, genocides in the old testament is not issues?

God never ordered rape. Please give a reference to these claims you make.

Ok, who does the throwing of that individual who does not believe in to hell?

Not believing in something does not cause it to not exist. I have explained who's fault it is if you go to hell.....and it's never God's

God in fact exists? Where is the proof of that?

1. Nature

Psalm 19:1

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

and also here -

Romans 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

2. The Bible

How much more proof do we need ?

Nope, he arose as well.

Negative....Krishna did not.

Because we are intelligent, we know darn right to care for the ones that provide food for us, and for the ones that protect us, and for the ones we have fun with and love. We are social.

If we don't care about anyone else, how will we succeed/survive when lions who are not as intelligent than us work together?

If for any chance it is proven that God doesn't exist, will you go on a killing rampage? If yes, you have some serious issues

We care because God made us that way...and, it never will be proven God doesn't exist - and I'll stake my life on that.

If an unbeliever is kind to others, and doesn't expect a reward and a religious person is kind to others, and expects a reward. Which one is honest about them being kind to others? I'd say the unbeliever.

Nope, you don't understand Christianity....we don't work to get a reward, we do it because we're getting a reward - out of gratitude for His free gift of salvation.

Romans 4:3-5

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Thank you Bob, but unfortunately I did have questions after your posts.

I am sorry...if this doesn't help, I'll hold off & let someone else have a go at it....acceptable ?

In His service,

Bob