Perfect Human

[tako]

HI OSIRIS, Read some of your comments, and I respect them. To have a friendly discussion, lets keep things on a THATS INTERESTING LEVEL, shall we?, that way we won't get too upset with each other, without trying to convince each other what or how to believe. This is what I believe. First of all I believe there is a GOD OF CREATION, Why??, let me explain, If I were walkin in a forest, and saw two branches or more upon each other, I could tell if it was coincidence or not because how it it laid upon each other, but if you saw a log cabin in a forest you new instantly this is not coincidence because this has design and intelligence behind this structure. Based upon this premise, If you think about it you will I'm sure know if there is a GOD. Now once your are convinced there is a GOD, your are on your way to see what THE GOD OF THE BIBLE HAS DONE FOR YOU..... I hope this helps thanks for your candid input..........TAKO

[Osiris]

Ok, let me try again ( I never claimed to have all the answers ).....

I know, religion is based on assumptions.

Assuming that the bible is the word of God to prove that God exists.

You did not answer how perfect humans are different from us.

You said they were perfect, but that does not answer how. You said they were made in God's image, and that we are made in God's image, no difference. They had a choice to obey, we have a choice to obey and we all have chosen to ignore him.

Hmm, through out all that, I didn't see a single difference between perfect and imperfect humans/

That difference was they were without sin. Until we are made sinless again, we'll never know what that was like for them. I've never experienced sinlessness, so I'm not in a position to answer that....it's not a cop out, I simply can't speak for something I have no experience with. I'm sure there were things unspeakable that they were able to experience while in perfection. One thing the Bible does mention, is they walked in the garden with God every evening....I can't even begin to think what that would be like....to ask questions, talk, laugh, etc.

I'm not sinning right now, am I perfect?

I ask for forgiveness so all my sins are cleared right now.

And I am not sinning right now and I am without sin(since they are cleared), am I perfect?

After you do an action, it doesn't stick on you. Sin is not an object that stays with you after you do it. If so, show me evidence that this element of sin exists.

Perfect humans that sin...

No, sinful humans that were once perfect but chose to rebel. A potter makes a perfect ornament and gives it to someone with instructions not to run while holding it or they'll break it...now if that new owner is irresponsible with the piece of art, runs and drops it, who's fault is it ? The potter or the irresponsible one who was entrusted with the piece of art ? That in no way reflects on the potter does it ?

I am sorry but that is a bad analogy. The reason why your anology is illogical is this:

The potter(God) made a perfect ornament(humans), he gave it someone with instructions not to run. (Who is this someone? Satan? It is surely not humans because humans are the ORNAMENT, remember??) If the ornament breaks, it is not the ornament(human)'s fault that it broke(sinned).

I am sorry but I cannot follow such reasoning.

Like I said, if Satan's sin originated from within, then he wasn't perfect.

Same as above...you can't blame the designer.

No, it is not the same as above. The ornament was not at fault for breaking.

A Perfect Ornament (Satan,human) cannot break itself, if it does break by itself then it wasn't perfect to begin with.

Translation: Sin cannot originate from a perfect being that does not sin. If sin does originate from a perfect being that does not sin, then it was not perfect to begin with.

God is perfect and expects nothing less than perfection?

Cain killed.... God killed(supposedly still kills)....

God does not approve of Cain, but does God approve of himself?

God kills ? No, man kills.

Hmm, the great flood doesn't ring a bell? How about God killing the first born if they didn't put blood around the door? Soddom and Gamorrah?

Remember, man brought death into the world and death is a product of man, not God ( Romans 5:12 )  And why didn't God approve of Cain ?  Let's take a look...

I meant approve of Cain killing Abel.

Does God approve of Cain's murder of Abel?

And yes, God does approve of Himself....He's God, why shouldn't He ?

Does God approve of himself when he drowned people in the great flood? If he does, why doesn't he approve Cain killing Abel?

He's perfect, holy and is worthy of praise...I'd say that makes Him worthy to be in approval of Himself.

If Saddam proclaimed himself as perfect holy and worthy of praise, and if you did not think so he will kill you, would you consider him as perfect, holy and worthy of praise?

What you are saying is, if you don't believe in God (and whats worst belief is not a choice to unbelievers) god will torture you for eternity, because that's what you want; to be tortured for eternity.

Hmm., what kind of ideology are you running here? Do you think unbelievers want to be tortured for eternity

I'm not saying that at all. You'll be torturing yourself. If you choose to reject God, then you will get what you asked for....why do you complain ? You want to ignore His word, therefore you bring condemnation upon yourself. You sound like Cain....how about you take God's answer to that question from Genesis 4:7 as seen above ?

How about if it were like this:

Do you believe in a Magical Leprechaun? Why don't you? Since you choose to reject the Magical Leprechaun you will get what you asked for... why do you complain? You want to ignore the Magical Leprechaun's rainbow, therefore you bring condemnation upon yourself. You sound like Cain... how about you take the Leprechaun's answer to that question from Leprechaun's stories as seen in Leprechaun's books.

Can you believe in a Magical Leprechaun? If not, then how do you expect unbelievers to believe in a magical God?

Besides, God doesn't want anyone to go to hell....

Then why did he create it?

How is it that he gives us the gift of life and if we don't believe in him he will take that gift away

You still don't understand.

I do understand, but I won't accept such illogical way of reasoning. Such as a perfect ornament being broken by someone else then claim is the ornament's fault?

Sorry, I don't buy it, just like you don't buy Magical Leprechauns.

God never took anything away that He shouldn't have.  He warned Adam that if he ate the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he would die.  God gave a choice to Adam. Adam messed it up.  You need to understand that God is the giver of life.  God is not unjust for condemning anyone - we deserve it because we are sinners.  All of us.

Ah, God gave a choice to Adam, not you not me, Adam.

Can you, my friends or my parents achieve salvation for me so I can go to heaven? If not, how can someone else I never knew or don't think existed bring damnation to me or all humanity?

The only reason unbelievers don't believe is because God hasn't made himself known; if he exists, he's been hiding

No, He's reveled Himself to us.

Sorry, if he did, everyone would believe he existed. Even me, there would be no reason for me to believe he doesn't exist if he had revealed and made himself known.

We chose to separate ourselves from God anyway, but He still made a way for us to come back to Him.  You have the Bible & the prophets in the Bible to read & believe....

We also have the book of Mormon to read and believe. We also have the Ghagavad-Gita to read and believe...

do you think you'd believe if God appeared to you ?

Are you serious in asking this?

If a Gorilla with wings appeared to you and started talking to you, why would you believe a talking Gorilla with wings doesn't exist? You have NO REASON not to believe that a talking Gorilla with wings exists.

If God came out of the clouds and said, "Peek-a-boo!" in front of me, I would have NO REASON for me to stay as an unbeliever.

Since you are in front of your computer, do you believe your computer doesn't exist? Do you think that people that use computers think computers don't exist?

Ordering killing, raping, genocides in the old testament is not issues?

God never ordered rape. Please give a reference to these claims you make.

Numbers 31:17

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.

Numbers 31:18

"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

Ok, who does the throwing of that individual who does not believe in to hell?

Not believing in something does not cause it to not exist.

Hey, both sides could say that as well , Believing in a God does not actually cause God to exist.

I have explained who's fault it is if you go to hell.....and it's never God's

Do you think unbelievers actually grab themselves by the neck and throw themselves in the pits of hell? Would you throw yourself into a volcano because your opinion was not correct? I wouldn't think you would.

God in fact exists? Where is the proof of that?

1. Nature

IF God exists, nature is the proof that God exists, but IF God doesn't exist, what would nature be a proof of?

Ok, how about this, a rainbow is proof that a Magical Leprechaun exists, now, will you believe in a Magical Leprechaun ?

2.  The Bible

Is the book of Mormon proof? Are the stories of Zeus proof for Zeus existance?

I am telling your right now that a Magical Leprechaun exists, is this proof that a Magical Leprechaun exist?

How much more proof do we need ?

Real proof.

And remember, claims are not proof.

Nope, he arose as well.

Negative....Krishna did not.

Yes he did.

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/index-english.html

And even if he didn't, hmm, Jesus story sounds too much like Krishna's and Krishna's was earlier than Jesus story. Hmmm, coincidence?

Because we are intelligent, we know darn right to care for the ones that provide food for us, and for the ones that protect us, and for the ones we have fun with and love. We are social.

If we don't care about anyone else, how will we succeed/survive when lions who are not as intelligent than us work together?

If for any chance it is proven that God doesn't exist, will you go on a killing rampage? If yes, you have some serious issues

We care because God made us that way...and, it never will be proven God doesn't exist - and I'll stake my life on that.

Can you prove that the Magical Leprechaun doesn't exist?

Can you prove that a Nupstikrepelleterer doesn't exist?

I'll stake my life on that as well, because things like that cannot be proven or disproven.

If an unbeliever is kind to others, and doesn't expect a reward and a religious person is kind to others, and expects a reward. Which one is honest about them being kind to others? I'd say the unbeliever.

Nope, you don't understand Christianity....we don't work to get a reward, we do it because we're getting a reward - out of gratitude for His free gift of salvation.

Are you saying that everyone will be getting a reward, believers and non-believers? If not, then why say that christians believe because they are getting a reward? If they are not christians, they won't get the reward. So it is the same thing as saying, christians work to get the reward.

Another question, would you follow a God if he said he would send all humanity to hell even if they are christians or not? If you wouldn't, aren't you following just so you can be saved instead of actually wanting to follow him?

Thank you Bob, but unfortunately I did have questions after your posts.

I am sorry...if this doesn't help, I'll hold off & let someone else have a go at it....acceptable ?

In His service,

Bob

Acceptable, but I wish your responces weren't sentences that if you gave it the opposite meaning, it would still hold.

For example,

"God exists because there are writings about him."

"Zeus exists because there are writings about him."

"Spiderman exists because there are writings about him."

[Osiris]

HI OSIRIS, Read some of your comments, and I respect them. To have a friendly discussion, lets keep things on a THATS INTERESTING LEVEL, shall we?, that way we won't get too upset with each other, without trying to convince each other what or how to believe.

Accept.

This is what I believe. First of all I believe there is a GOD OF CREATION, Why??, let me explain, If I were walkin in a forest, and saw two branches or more upon each other, I could tell if it was coincidence or not because how it it laid upon each other, but if you saw a log cabin in a forest you new instantly this is not coincidence because this has design and intelligence behind this structure.

Is there intelligence behind the structure of God? Based on this reasoning, if there is intelligence behind God, he must have been designed by someone else as well right?

The problem with this way of thinking is evils such as , the AIDS virus; Was the AIDS virus intelligently designed as well? If so, who would do such a thing?

And for the cabin, the chances of a cabin building itself or from a tornado are nearly impossible it is safe to say it is impossible, but life forms such as us can. You see, trees don't need to form themselves into log cabins to survive, they can stay as trees and they will do just fine.

The chances of 1 single celled organism forming in this whole universe at least once are pretty good (We're here aren't we?). Then from that, single celled organisms joined together and engineered multi-celled organisms in order to aquire food much easier.(This process would take billions of years though, much longer than the snapping of a finger.)

To me, this sounds more reasonable than an invisible man snapping his finger and creating man.

Based upon this premise, If you think about it you will I'm sure know if there is a GOD.  Now once your are convinced there is a GOD, your are on your way to see what THE GOD OF THE BIBLE HAS DONE FOR YOU..... I hope this helps thanks for your candid input..........TAKO

There is no way to know that God exists, there are only assumptions based on claims. If you believe or not believe is just a matter of opinion, I really don't buy the story of a loving creator that destroys his creations for having an opinion the creator does not like.

I am not claiming that God doesn't exist, all I am saying is that I don't think that he does not exist. But I could be wrong, for all we know, God could have created the universe through the Big Bang, made it possible for the first single celled organisms to form here on earth.

[BoldlyProclaimingChrist]

You have many questions but rather than address each one of them now, we must get to the core of your disbelief which is God and the Bible. Below are some links and I ask that you print them out and read them at your leisure. Before I believed, I felt much like you with many questions and the answers I got never made sense. I was also a practicing witch among other things so it took a lot of convincing for me.

None of us here are trying to change your mind, nor can we - we rely on God to do that....but what we do ask is that you read with a desire to know the truth - whatever it may be. You find out for yourself but please do it in honesty.

Below are some links that may be helpful:

Non biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people

Archaeological Evidence verifying biblical cities

Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document?

Is there non-biblical evidence of a day of darkness at Christ's death?

Doesn't the religion of Mithra prove that Christianity is false?

Archaeological Evidence verifying biblical cities

The Bible

The bottom line there is no "proof" that God exists in the manner in which is acceptable to you because God is not here physically (because He is perfect and is incompatible with sin which is us). But there is EVIDENCE. Once you accept the evidence, your conclusion if done with an open heart will CONCLUDE that there is a God.

[tako]

HI OSIRIS, Read your comments, I found it very interesting, In reading your answers, I was wondering if maybe your looking at this from a different point of view?.That is maybe if you were in SEARCH FOR GOD instead or trying to prove to yourself that THAT GOD MAY NOT EXIST???. Also maybe in your search for GOD, try to look at in totality, meaning the WHOLE PICTURE put together,. For instancce read the BIBLE, and see if its HISTORICLY ACCURATE,SCIENTIFCLY ACCURATE. PROPHETICLY ACCURATE, SPIRITUALLY PROFOUND, ETC. ETC. Try it from this angle If I may suggest, and maybe you'll find something different?? NO?, Just a suggestion if you please, I am confident with a mind like YOURS, If you SEEK YOU WILL FIND HIM, and if your give HIM a chance , I am sure you will have a different opinion of HIM.... TAKO

[Osiris]

You have many questions but rather than address each one of them now, we must get to the core of your disbelief which is God and the Bible.

That's a part, but the biggest reason for my disbelief is because it is not logical.

The bottom line there is no "proof" that God exists in the manner in which is acceptable to you because God is not here physically (because He is perfect and is incompatible with sin which is us).

So, are you saying that if one is perfect and sinless, one would not exist physically?

You have to remember that Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless at one time and they existed here physically.

But there is EVIDENCE. Once you accept the evidence, your conclusion if done with an open heart will CONCLUDE that there is a God.

I don't argue if the historicy of the bible is true or not. I don't argue that the city of bethlehem did not exist. The bible's historicy could be somewhat true, just like the nursery rhyme "London bridge is falling down" has a history behind it. But the story of Jesus sounds too much like Krishna's to be a coincidence.

But I cannot believe on the claims of people claiming to be inspired by God,

there is no historical evidence that can prove people are inspired by God. If God wants himself to be known, he could do a better job than instead of making a book.

I cannot assume people were inspired by God, so then I can conclude that there is a God, I would not find this an honest way to believe in something.

[Osiris]

HI OSIRIS, Read your comments, I found it very interesting, In reading your answers, I was wondering if maybe your looking at this from a different point of view?.That is maybe if you were in SEARCH FOR GOD instead or trying to prove to yourself that THAT GOD MAY NOT EXIST???

So how can one be in search for God? You mean look for signs?

If I was in search for a Magical Leprechaun I would probably find same about of evidence. The only difference is, not too many people are in search for Magical Leprachauns.

Also maybe in your search for GOD, try to look at in totality, meaning the WHOLE PICTURE put together,. For instancce read the BIBLE, and see if its HISTORICLY ACCURATE,SCIENTIFCLY ACCURATE. PROPHETICLY ACCURATE, SPIRITUALLY PROFOUND, ETC. ETC. Try it from this angle If I may suggest, and maybe you'll find something different?? NO?, Just a suggestion if you please, I am confident with a mind like YOURS, If you SEEK YOU WILL FIND HIM, and if your give HIM a chance , I am sure you will have a different opinion of HIM.... TAKO

Thank you tako, but I was a christian for 18 years, so I've been on that path before. What I can remember it was nothing more than relief by meditation through prayer; Yoga can do the same thing.

[eric]

Dont cast your pearls before the swine, seems appropriate about here.

eric.

[BoldlyProclaimingChrist]

The truth is your mind is made up on this and if we do try to help you, you reject it and respond with more questions. You don't actually seek answers - you seek a way to manipulate our comments so you can ask more questions. You in fact twist them. I'm not going to argue with you - I've given you links. Read them or don't read them, but I'm not putting forth energy when I know it isn't really wanted or appreciated.

Good day.

[Osiris]

Dont cast your pearls before the swine, seems appropriate about here.

eric.

Yes, that fixes everything.