larryt Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12706175332 Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Just some things to ponder. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12706175332 Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Just some things to ponder. LT If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The answer to both is yes. To say other wise is to deny God's Sovereignty. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 What strikes us as just an unjust, are only our opinions. It is God and God only, who is the ultimate authority on the subject. It is, after all, His creation, everything in it is His to do with as he desires. We ultimately own nothing, not even our own lives. When we presume to question God on whether He is just, or loving, things of that nature, we do so out of ignorance of who God is. We take our limited knowledge, experience, and desires, and try to apply them to a being that is so far beyond our ability to comprehend, which is of course just foolish. Thankfully, God is loving, ready, willing, able and wanting to forgive, so He has provide a way to give us what we do not deserve, and spare us from what we do deserve. He is also not forcing anyone to accept His offer of grace, so we get to choose how we are dealt with. What could be more fait than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 . Thankfully, God is loving, ready, willing, able and wanting to forgive, so He has provide a way to give us what we do not deserve, and spare us from what we do deserve. He is also not forcing anyone to accept His offer of grace, so we get to choose how we are dealt with. What could be more fait than that? John 6:65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." (HCSB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12706175332 Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Just some things to ponder. LT If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The answer to both is yes. To say other wise is to deny God's Sovereignty. JB Grace to you, God is Sovereign to state any less would be a total misunderstanding of His nature. That said, to state that the answer is yes is a misunderstanding of His nature. Justice was Served and meted out on Christ. God could not Save anyone outside of Christ, He simply saw no other way to Save you and there has been no other way since the fall. The Word is quite clear no one apart from Faith in Gods Word will be Saved. If the opposite were true then the Bloody Sacrifices offered by the thousands throughout the ages would not have had to be followed up by the Reality of the Faith they were expressing. It wasn't Faith in the sacrifice or the practice that Saved but Faith in the God whom promoted the sacrifice as a foreshadow of the Reality. It was and is literal Trust in His Word. That has more to do with His nature and Sovereignty than speculation about whether or not He can oppose His own Word. We then would do well to know Him because that is what Faith in His Word has wrought. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12706175332 Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Just some things to ponder. LT If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The answer to both is yes. To say other wise is to deny God's Sovereignty. JB Grace to you, God is Sovereign to state any less would be a total misunderstanding of His nature. That said, to state that the answer is yes is a misunderstanding of His nature. Justice was Served and meted out on Christ. God could not Save anyone outside of Christ, He simply saw no other way to Save you and there has been no other way since the fall. The Word is quite clear no one apart from Faith in Gods Word will be Saved. If the opposite were true then the Bloody Sacrifices offered by the thousands throughout the ages would not have had to be followed up by the Reality of the Faith they were expressing. It wasn't Faith in the sacrifice or the practice that Saved but Faith in the God whom promoted the sacrifice as a foreshadow of the Reality. It was and is literal Trust in His Word. That has more to do with His nature and Sovereignty than speculation about whether or not He can oppose His own Word. We then would do well to know Him because that is what Faith in His Word has wrought. Peace, Dave Hello Dave Shalom or Salaam Let's go back to the question asked Dave, If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son. God would not break His covenant with man let alone with His own Son. Salvation is a free gift no man has a right to it, no man is owed salvation. Christ had no obligation to pay for my sins, it is not Him that owes me but me that owes Him. How could man claim injustice because God refuses to embrace man's sin? The injustice is by men who claim their works have made them righteous. If God chose not to save anyone He would have chosen to do so at the beginning of time and it would He be just in doing so. Peace be with you. JB http://biblediscussion.org/ By the way Larryt, they call it "Universal Salvation" it was discussed here http://biblediscussion.org/index.php?topic=527.0 It denies God's Sovereignty and the saving Blood of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12706175332 Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Just some things to ponder. LT If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The answer to both is yes. To say other wise is to deny God's Sovereignty. JB Grace to you, God is Sovereign to state any less would be a total misunderstanding of His nature. That said, to state that the answer is yes is a misunderstanding of His nature. Justice was Served and meted out on Christ. God could not Save anyone outside of Christ, He simply saw no other way to Save you and there has been no other way since the fall. The Word is quite clear no one apart from Faith in Gods Word will be Saved. If the opposite were true then the Bloody Sacrifices offered by the thousands throughout the ages would not have had to be followed up by the Reality of the Faith they were expressing. It wasn't Faith in the sacrifice or the practice that Saved but Faith in the God whom promoted the sacrifice as a foreshadow of the Reality. It was and is literal Trust in His Word. That has more to do with His nature and Sovereignty than speculation about whether or not He can oppose His own Word. We then would do well to know Him because that is what Faith in His Word has wrought. Peace, Dave Hello Dave Shalom or Salaam Let's go back to the question asked Dave, If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son. God would not break His covenant with man let alone with His own Son. Salvation is a free gift no man has a right to it, no man is owed salvation. Christ had no obligation to pay for my sins, it is not Him that owes me but me that owes Him. How could man claim injustice because God refuses to embrace man's sin? The injustice is by men who claim their works have made them righteous. If God chose not to save anyone He would have chosen to do so at the beginning of time and it would He be just in doing so. Peace be with you. JB http://biblediscussion.org/ By the way Larryt, they call it "Universal Salvation" it was discussed here http://biblediscussion.org/index.php?topic=527.0 It denies God's Sovereignty and the saving Blood of Christ. Bless you JB, If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Man was Created for God by God. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son However, it is the revelation of Himself through His Son, that speaks of His very nature and it has everything to do with the question. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 Bless you JB, If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Man was Created for God by God. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son However, it is the revelation of Himself through His Son, that speaks of His very nature and it has everything to do with the question. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Peace, Dave Brother Dave may you be anointed by the wisdom of a thousand prophets. If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Your logic is far beyond this humble mind of mine. I know not what the Potter would have chosen to do with His clay but it would help if you provided some scripture. If God has taken responsibility, who is that He is responsible to. I believe that God's plan is perfect and He did not make a mistake as you imply. IHS JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 We have a duality in scripture. 1. God is completely soveriegn over all things (even salvation) 2. People make decisions that have real consequences and for which God holds them responsible (even the decision to respond to the gospel) Both of these truths are affirmed by scripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 Bless you JB, If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Man was Created for God by God. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son However, it is the revelation of Himself through His Son, that speaks of His very nature and it has everything to do with the question. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Peace, Dave Brother Dave may you be anointed by the wisdom of a thousand prophets. If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Your logic is far beyond this humble mind of mine. I know not what the Potter would have chosen to do with His clay but it would help if you provided some scripture. If God has taken responsibility, who is that He is responsible to. I believe that God's plan is perfect and He did not make a mistake as you imply. IHS JB JB, No implication of a mistake at all. God knew man was going to fall. Scripture with regards to Gods taking responsibility for mans sin even though He had nothing to do with it; Ge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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