EricH Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 The intial question is faulty in its premise. The question is, Would God be just if He chose to save none. That is an impossible question to answer. The reason is that God holds all of His attributes in perfection. He never does any thing based on any one attribute alone. Every one of His actions is based on all of His attributes. One would need to ask, Could God have still been God and not shosen to save any? Because any decision God makes has implications for all of his attributes (mercy, love, grace, justice etc.). To single out one is not possible with God. To single out one would be to misrepresent God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 20, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2008 The intial question is faulty in its premise. The question is, Would God be just if He chose to save none. That is an impossible question to answer. The reason is that God holds all of His attributes in perfection. He never does any thing based on any one attribute alone. Every one of his actions is based on all of his attributes. One would need to ask could God have still been God and not shosen to save any? Because any decision God makes has implications for all of his attributes (mercy, love, grace, justice etc.). To single out one is not possible with God That is exactly why the answer of Yes is implausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Bless you JB, If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Man was Created for God by God. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son However, it is the revelation of Himself through His Son, that speaks of His very nature and it has everything to do with the question. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Peace, Dave Brother Dave may you be anointed by the wisdom of a thousand prophets. If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Your logic is far beyond this humble mind of mine. I know not what the Potter would have chosen to do with His clay but it would help if you provided some scripture. If God has taken responsibility, who is that He is responsible to. I believe that God's plan is perfect and He did not make a mistake as you imply. IHS JB JB, No implication of a mistake at all. God knew man was going to fall. Scripture with regards to Gods taking responsibility for mans sin even though He had nothing to do with it; Ge Edited October 21, 2008 by JB Horn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 Bless you JB, If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Man was Created for God by God. The question does not ask about the Fathers covenant with His Son However, it is the revelation of Himself through His Son, that speaks of His very nature and it has everything to do with the question. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Peace, Dave Brother Dave may you be anointed by the wisdom of a thousand prophets. If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. Now we are talking about His Omniscience and not the Heresy of Universal Salvation. Regardless, my point was that God wound this thing up and started it thus He has taken responsibility for it even though mans sin nature was not due to His fault. Your logic is far beyond this humble mind of mine. I know not what the Potter would have chosen to do with His clay but it would help if you provided some scripture. If God has taken responsibility, who is that He is responsible to. I believe that God's plan is perfect and He did not make a mistake as you imply. IHS JB JB, No implication of a mistake at all. God knew man was going to fall. Scripture with regards to Gods taking responsibility for mans sin even though He had nothing to do with it; Ge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) Shalom Dave So let's look at the question and try not to read into it. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. God's choice was made before He made the first covenant with Christ, on this we both agree do we not? You say that If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. I ask for scripture and you give me this, Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was. That only tells us Dave when God made this diction that we are now discussing. You claim to know God's alternatives in this diction can you explain why then God created Satan. Let me help you out. Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God raised up the Pharaoh so that He could destroy him and I would summit to you that it is likely the is the same reason He created Satan, that is His sovereign right. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. The answer to this question is yes as God has demonstrated through out the bible. Every person that God has chosen to destroy He knew He was going to destroy them before their creation. Do you disagree with my analyses? If God did not want to use this sovereignty (the right to destroy His own creations) why did He put the tree of knowledge in the garden? IHS JB Edited October 21, 2008 by JB Horn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 I was listening to the following sermon this evening and the preacher brings up 3 questions. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. If He saved everybody irregardless of whether they believed in Christ would He still be just.(There are some that believe that everybody including the devil will be saved. How they come to this conclusion I do not understand.) Shalom Dave So let's look at the question and try not to read into it. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. God's choice was made before He made the first covenant with Christ, on this we both agree do we not? You say that If God had chosen not to Save anyone then He would also have chosen not to Create man to begin with. I ask for scripture and you give me this, Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was. That only tells us Dave when God made this diction that we are now discussing. You claim to know God's alternatives in this diction can you explain why then God created Satan. Let me help you out. Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God raised up the Pharaoh so that He could destroy him and I would summit to you that it is likely the is the same reason He created Satan, that is His sovereign right. The first of which is the topic of this post. If God chose not to save anyone would He be just in His dealings with man. The answer to this question is yes as God has demonstrated through out the bible. Every person that God has chosen to destroy He knew He was going to destroy them before their creation. Do you disagree with my analyses? If God did not want to use this sovereignty (the right to destroy His own creations) why did He put the tree of knowledge in the garden? IHS JB Bless you JB, With respect to your argument, I wholeheartedly disagree, and I wish to state that God didn't Create anyone for destruction, including satan. However satan was found lacking and his pride caused him to fall. Pharoah could have chosen to accept Gods Grace but instead what was displayed in his life was Gods Glory in his disobedience and ulitmate self destruction. God has said; De Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 Hi Dave shalom With respect to your argument, I wholeheartedly disagree, and I wish to state that God didn't Create anyone for destruction, including satan. However satan was found lacking and his pride caused him to fall. Pharoah could have chosen to accept Gods Grace but instead what was displayed in his life was Gods Glory in his disobedience and ulitmate self destruction. OH? While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. IHS JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 Hi Dave shalom With respect to your argument, I wholeheartedly disagree, and I wish to state that God didn't Create anyone for destruction, including satan. However satan was found lacking and his pride caused him to fall. Pharoah could have chosen to accept Gods Grace but instead what was displayed in his life was Gods Glory in his disobedience and ulitmate self destruction. OH? While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. IHS JB JB, Would you agree that he had the same opportunity that the others had? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 Grace to you JB, What translation is that Scripture you quoted from? I'm curious. My translation states it this way; Joh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted October 21, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2008 JB, Would you agree that he had the same opportunity that the others had? Peace, Dave The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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