Where does 'good' come from?

[Dave123]

I wanted to add this from the link provided in my previous post.

Let me put it to you simply: God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. Everything -- listen to this carefully -- that God created was "very" what? "Good." Everything. This is affirmed throughout the scripture. In Habakkuk Chapter 1: "God is of purer eyes than to" approve evil or "behold evil. He cannot look on wickedness." Habakkuk Chapter 1, Verse 13. 1st Corinthians 14:33 says: "God is not the author of confusion." Confusion is a product of sin. 1st John 1:5 says: "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." James 1:13 says: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man." 1st John 2:16 says: "All that is in the world," all evil categorically, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, is not of the Father." Psalm 5:4: "You are not a God who has pleasure in wickedness; neither will evil dwell with You." Psalm 5:4. In fact, on a positive note, Isaiah 6, the antiphonal cry of the angels was that God was "Holy, holy, holy." We see a glimpse of that, of course, when Jesus came into the world; God in human flesh. He was holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners. God is not evil. God does not do evil. He cannot be tempted to do evil. He never tempts anybody else to do evil. God is not responsible for evil.

The source of evil, the source of sin, is outside God. When God created angels and God created humans, he gave them intelligence. He gave them reason, and he gave them choice. And there is a sequence. I put those words in that order for a purpose. Intelligence gave them the ability to understand things. Reason gave them the ability to process that understanding toward behavior. And choice gave them the freedom to determine that behavior. Intelligence, reason, and choice. Bottom line: With what they knew, and with the ability they had to process that information, they would be brought to a choice. And whether angels or men, they would have the choice either to obey God or not to obey God.

Listen to this: To disobey God was to initiate evil. Evil is not the presence of something. Evil is the absence of righteousness. You can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. It doesn't exist as a created reality. Evil is a negative. Evil is the absence of perfection. It's the absence of holiness. It's the absence of goodness. It's the absence of righteousness. Evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. Evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels. And then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve.

Just put it this way in your mind. Evil is not a created thing. Evil is not a substance. Evil is not an entity. Evil is not a being. Evil is not a force. Evil is not some floating spirit. Evil is a lack of moral perfection. God created absolute perfection. Wherever a lack of that exists, sin exists. And that cannot exist in the nature of God or in anything that God makes. Evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.

Now, let me take it a step further. God did not create evil. He did not author evil. He did not make evil. But listen carefully, very important: God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay? He will not be culpable for it. He did not bring it into existence. That would be impossible because God is good, all good and only good. Therefore, whatever comes out of Him is all good and only good. God can, therefore, produce only good. And what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasonings based upon the information revealed to his creatures? But, God was not caught off guard. In fact, God decreed that evil would be part of his plan. He is not the creator of evil, and He is not the cause of evil. He did not bring evil into existence in a cosmic sense, and he did not and does not bring evil into existence in a personal sense. He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. But he does use it for his purposes. And that's why in Isaiah 45:7 -- just write this down; you may run across it. It says God creates "calamity." Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged. Now, listen carefully: Scripture written by God always assigns the guilt and responsibility for all sin to creatures; never to God. Never to God. Folks, that's all we know. Okay?

Just a pc. of it that touched on some of the discussion here. It's still worth your time to read the whole thing. I also would like to pose the questions I asked in my last thread again if anyone is still interested.

Is it safe (biblical) to say that God is the only source of good?

Would it then be correct to say that evil is not a created thing, per say, but simply the absence of God, or better, the absence of Good?

Dave

Edited January 9, 2009 by Dave123

[legoman]

Is it safe (biblical) to say that God is the only source of good?

Would it then be correct to say that evil is not a created thing, per say, but simply the absence of God, or better, the absence of Good?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes God is the source of all good, he is the source of all.

Is evil the absence of good? I don't think so exactly. Contrary to the article, evil is a created thing. God does indeed setup and cause evil circumstances to use for good purposes. He raised up Pharaoh for his purposes.

Its the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How can anyone know what "good" is unless they have experienced evil? Good and evil go hand in hand. Good will overcome evil. If there was no evil, good could not overcome. Eventually evil will be abolished, and good will overcome.

The article says if God creates evil, then "then God must himself be evil". Not true. We know that God has a knowledge of good and evil. Just because he uses evil, sets up evil circumstances, even creates evil, does not mean he is evil. God uses evil for ultimately good purposes. There are many things God can do that humans should not. Humans should not use evil for any purpose - but God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He can right any wrong and He can use evil as he sees fit.

The article says "God does not do evil". Again, not true. There are many examples in scripture where God sends forth evil, causes evil, uses evil, etc. God used Assyria like a "club in his hand" (Isaiah 10:5)

Here are some more examples of God using evil, creating evil, raising up evil, etc. in the scriptures. Maybe you say that the 'evil' in these verses should really mean 'calamity'. We shall see:

Ecc 1:13 And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It [is] a sad [hebrew: Ra] travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.

Notice the word 'ra' is there again in Ecc 1:13. The concordant old testament translates it as "an experience of evil has God given to the sons of man to be humbled by it" This verse is key to understanding why God uses and causes evil.

Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Josh 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Now are the above verses talking about just calamity, or evil? What is the difference? If the LORD promises to bring you all evil things until you are destroyed, doesn't that sound like the LORD is raising up evil for his purpose?

2 Sam 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

1 Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

These verses in 1 & 2 Samuel are pretty clear. The Lord is raising up evil and will take their wives and give them to their neighbour. And then we see what happened to Amalek. Men, women and children slaughtered - this is more than just calamity, this is evil.

Look at Habakkuk 1:13 in context of verses 5-11:

5 "Look at the nations and watch

[Dave123]

Hi legoman

Again, we need to be careful to look at the context of many of the scriptures that you posted. Most are, as was pointed out, acts of judgement.

Do you see the difference between the next two quotes?

Your quote from the article I posted:

The article says "God does not do evil". Again, not true.

Your response:

There are many examples in scripture where God sends forth evil, causes evil, uses evil, etc. God used Assyria like a "club in his hand" (Isaiah 10:5)

The first quote which I used speaks of effectual cause only. But the second, your responce in critiquing the first adds "sends forth" and "uses". This is a muddying of the waters, wouldn't you agree? We are speaking strictly of the cause, or source of evil.

There is quite a big difference between God providentially governing everything, including evil, from an eternal decree, being sovereign over it, and saying that all evil is caused, as in sourced in God.

If you will kindly post the scripture that you believe says that God is the cause, meaning the source of evil, then we will deal with those.

Something for you to consider too. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."

Thanks

Dave

Edited January 9, 2009 by Dave123

[Teach]

Is it safe (biblical) to say that God is the only source of good?

Would it then be correct to say that evil is not a created thing, per say, but simply the absence of God, or better, the absence of Good?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes God is the source of all good, he is the source of all.

Is evil the absence of good? I don't think so exactly. Contrary to the article, evil is a created thing. God does indeed setup and cause evil circumstances to use for good purposes. He raised up Pharaoh for his purposes.

Legoman

You misinterpret "Isaiah 45:7 ... I make peace, and create evil "

The NIV says "I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things.

The NIV is a version I don't even like but as you can see many scholars interpret "RA" in a different way.

Nevertheless "RA" can not always be translated as "Evil" for the sake of supporting your understanding of the concept of evil.

This verse contrasts light with darknes (which are opposite) and in keeping with the thought should also translated Peace with its opposite which would be Calamity, Chaos, Unrest, Turmoil.

Many of the verses you quote need to be translated in the same way. God does not create evil or raise evil or generate evil. EVIL was already in this world because of the constant wrong choices and wrong doings of man and God uses this to exact Judgement on sin and disobedience or to discipline towards righteousness.

To say that God creates and forms evil for the purpose of good is in direct contradiction of His own direction and will as evidenced in

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID ....

When a parent disciplines a child, is that evil?

When a judge puts you in jail, for your evil, is that evil?

When there was no Creation, no Angels, No man are you saying that out of God flowed a fountain of Good & Evil?

Where was evil when nothing was but God?

The Tree in the Garden was not a Tree of Good and Evil it was a Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

Had man not sinned, he would have never known about Good or Evil. Man would have only known God as God and He would have revealed Himself as Himself, which we know NOW is good but but without sin would just the norm, GOD.

Adam did not know about concept Good or Evil no more than he knew about the concept of death. All Adam knew the great and wonderful happiness of experiencing relationship with God day after day after day. And it could have gone on like that for eternity either as a robot or with choice and a warning. His rebellious choice introduced evil into the physical and human realm. Evil had already been introduced by Satan in the Spiritual realm.

If there ever was something impossible to God it is to create evil. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, Dave, thank you for those great posts. Although I disagree somewhat on this Statement: "God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay?

But I won't get into that for fear that Nebula would relegate me to the hijacking quasars of space.

Blessings

[EricH]

Is it safe (biblical) to say that God is the only source of good?

Would it then be correct to say that evil is not a created thing, per say, but simply the absence of God, or better, the absence of Good?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes God is the source of all good, he is the source of all.

Is evil the absence of good? I don't think so exactly. Contrary to the article, evil is a created thing. God does indeed setup and cause evil circumstances to use for good purposes. He raised up Pharaoh for his purposes.

Legoman

You misinterpret "Isaiah 45:7 ... I make peace, and create evil "

The NIV says "I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things.

The NIV is a version I don't even like but as you can see many scholars interpret "RA" in a different way.

Nevertheless "RA" can not always be translated as "Evil" for the sake of supporting your understanding of the concept of evil.

This verse contrasts light with darknes (which are opposite) and in keeping with the thought should also translated Peace with its opposite which would be Calamity, Chaos, Unrest, Turmoil.

Many of the verses you quote need to be translated in the same way. God does not create evil or raise evil or generate evil. EVIL was already in this world because of the constant wrong choices and wrong doings of man and God uses this to exact Judgement on sin and disobedience or to discipline towards righteousness.

To say that God creates and forms evil for the purpose of good is in direct contradiction of His own direction and will as evidenced in

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID ....

When a parent disciplines a child, is that evil?

When a judge puts you in jail, for your evil, is that evil?

When there was no Creation, no Angels, No man are you saying that out of God flowed a fountain of Good & Evil?

Where was evil when nothing was but God?

The Tree in the Garden was not a Tree of Good and Evil it was a Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

Had man not sinned, he would have never known about Good or Evil. Man would have only known God as God and He would have revealed Himself as Himself, which we know NOW is good but but without sin would just the norm, GOD.

Adam did not know about concept Good or Evil no more than he knew about the concept of death. All Adam knew the great and wonderful happiness of experiencing relationship with God day after day after day. And it could have gone on like that for eternity either as a robot or with choice and a warning. His rebellious choice introduced evil into the physical and human realm. Evil had already been introduced by Satan in the Spiritual realm.

If there ever was something impossible to God it is to create evil. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, Dave, thank you for those great posts. Although I disagree somewhat on this Statement: "God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay?

But I won't get into that for fear that Nebula would relegate me to the hijacking quasars of space.

Blessings

It is interesting that the septuagint writers chose to translate ra'ah as kakos (bad or evil). Shalom has many more meaning sthan smply "peace". No matter where one lands on this issue, the passage is one of many spectrum texts in scripture.

[Dave123]

Alright, teach. Hey I thought I'd throw this in since it's fresh on my mind.

"God is very often said to blind and harden the reprobate . . .. There are two methods in which God may so act. [1] When his light is taken away, nothing remains but blindness and darkness: when his Spirit is taken away, our hearts become hard as stones: when his guidance is withdrawn, we immediately turn from the right path: and hence he is properly said to incline, harden, and blind those whom he deprives of the faculty of seeing, obeying, and rightly executing.

The second method . . . is when executing his judgements by Satan as the minister of his anger, God both directs men's counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases. Institutes. (II.4.3)

[legoman]

Hi legoman

Again, we need to be careful to look at the context of many of the scriptures that you posted. Most are, as was pointed out, acts of judgement.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. God uses evil circumstances and activities as part of his judgement. To the one being judged, at that moment, it may appear to be an evil situation, but God is meaning it for good. Psalm 119:39 "Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good." So here we see God's judgments are good, even though he uses evil to carry them out.

Do you see the difference between the next two quotes?

Your quote from the article I posted:

The article says "God does not do evil". Again, not true.

Your response:

There are many examples in scripture where God sends forth evil, causes evil, uses evil, etc. God used Assyria like a "club in his hand" (Isaiah 10:5)

The first quote which I used speaks of effectual cause only. But the second, your responce in critiquing the first adds "sends forth" and "uses". This is a muddying of the waters, wouldn't you agree? We are speaking strictly of the cause, or source of evil.

Yes perhaps that is part of the confusion. Are we talking about 'evil circumstances', or just the 'concept of evil itself'? Clearly from the previous verses I had quoted we can see that God does use, cause, and even creates evil circumstances. For example He raised up the Bablyonians (Chaldeans) in Hab 1 to do evil that He purposed. From what I have read I don't think you disagree with that either (please correct me if I am wrong).

However perhaps here is the real answer as to the direct source of evil. I will let the scripture say it:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?

Here we see that evil comes from the heart, and it needs to be washed out.

There is quite a big difference between God providentially governing everything, including evil, from an eternal decree, being sovereign over it, and saying that all evil is caused, as in sourced in God.

If you will kindly post the scripture that you believe says that God is the cause, meaning the source of evil, then we will deal with those.

I still maintain that God is the cause of all things, as that is what these scripture say:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Cor 12: 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Whether we like it or not, God is working all in accordance with his own purpose and will. Some of this "working all things" includes working evil for his purposes. God is the ultimate cause of all things.

Even consider man's heart. Out of man's heart proceeds all sorts of evil. But, who created the man's heart? God did! Was man's heart pure and good before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve lusted after the fruit before she had even eaten it. Why is this? Her heart caused her to lust. God designed it that way.

Something for you to consider too. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."

Thanks

Dave

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience (unbelief) so that he may have mercy on them all.

God does set people against his will so that he can have mercy on them later.

Thanks for your polite discussion on this.

Cheers,

Legoman

[Dave123]

Thanks for the reply, legoman

Probably the best reponse that I could give to you would be the one that you were replying to from me.

God does use, cause, and even creates evil circumstances

Again, a muddying of the waters.

Here we see that evil comes from the heart, and it needs to be washed out.

This is a direct result of our seperation from God that we inherited from Adam. This is a seperation that is not only from God, but from the only source of good. This is also an act of judgement. This is why it is said "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5). Until God moves, man is left to himself. Without God, the source of all good, (John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Isaiah 64:6) man can only produce evil. This is the foundation for the doctrine known as total depravity, or better, total inability. God must move first (John 6:44). Calvin touched on this in the quote I gave from my previous post.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Cor 12: 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

This is speaking of Gods providence. I agree that He governs all things. This is very different from saying that He effectually caused them.

"Worketh all" would fall into the catagory of what you would call "does use [all]".

Dave

Edited January 13, 2009 by Dave123

[Fraught]

I wanted to add this from the link provided in my previous post.

Let me put it to you simply: God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. God is not responsible for evil. His creatures are. Everything -- listen to this carefully -- that God created was "very" what? "Good." Everything. This is affirmed throughout the scripture. In Habakkuk Chapter 1: "God is of purer eyes than to" approve evil or "behold evil. He cannot look on wickedness." Habakkuk Chapter 1, Verse 13. 1st Corinthians 14:33 says: "God is not the author of confusion." Confusion is a product of sin. 1st John 1:5 says: "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." James 1:13 says: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man." 1st John 2:16 says: "All that is in the world," all evil categorically, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, is not of the Father." Psalm 5:4: "You are not a God who has pleasure in wickedness; neither will evil dwell with You." Psalm 5:4. In fact, on a positive note, Isaiah 6, the antiphonal cry of the angels was that God was "Holy, holy, holy." We see a glimpse of that, of course, when Jesus came into the world; God in human flesh. He was holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners. God is not evil. God does not do evil. He cannot be tempted to do evil. He never tempts anybody else to do evil. God is not responsible for evil.

The source of evil, the source of sin, is outside God. When God created angels and God created humans, he gave them intelligence. He gave them reason, and he gave them choice. And there is a sequence. I put those words in that order for a purpose. Intelligence gave them the ability to understand things. Reason gave them the ability to process that understanding toward behavior. And choice gave them the freedom to determine that behavior. Intelligence, reason, and choice. Bottom line: With what they knew, and with the ability they had to process that information, they would be brought to a choice. And whether angels or men, they would have the choice either to obey God or not to obey God.

Listen to this: To disobey God was to initiate evil. Evil is not the presence of something. Evil is the absence of righteousness. You can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. It doesn't exist as a created reality. Evil is a negative. Evil is the absence of perfection. It's the absence of holiness. It's the absence of goodness. It's the absence of righteousness. Evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. Evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels. And then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve.

Just put it this way in your mind. Evil is not a created thing. Evil is not a substance. Evil is not an entity. Evil is not a being. Evil is not a force. Evil is not some floating spirit. Evil is a lack of moral perfection. God created absolute perfection. Wherever a lack of that exists, sin exists. And that cannot exist in the nature of God or in anything that God makes. Evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.

Now, let me take it a step further. God did not create evil. He did not author evil. He did not make evil. But listen carefully, very important: God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay? He will not be culpable for it. He did not bring it into existence. That would be impossible because God is good, all good and only good. Therefore, whatever comes out of Him is all good and only good. God can, therefore, produce only good. And what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasonings based upon the information revealed to his creatures? But, God was not caught off guard. In fact, God decreed that evil would be part of his plan. He is not the creator of evil, and He is not the cause of evil. He did not bring evil into existence in a cosmic sense, and he did not and does not bring evil into existence in a personal sense. He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. But he does use it for his purposes. And that's why in Isaiah 45:7 -- just write this down; you may run across it. It says God creates "calamity." Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged. Now, listen carefully: Scripture written by God always assigns the guilt and responsibility for all sin to creatures; never to God. Never to God. Folks, that's all we know. Okay?

Just a pc. of it that touched on some of the discussion here. It's still worth your time to read the whole thing. I also would like to pose the questions I asked in my last thread again if anyone is still interested.

Is it safe (biblical) to say that God is the only source of good?

Would it then be correct to say that evil is not a created thing, per say, but simply the absence of God, or better, the absence of Good?

Dave

i believe it is biblically safe to say that God is the only source of good.

(on the side-note, God didn't have to decree evil (and did not). that took care of itself when He gave man free will. what do the armed services say? "freedom is not free"? i guess it's kind of the same thing.

[legoman]

Thanks for the reply, legoman

Probably the best reponse that I could give to you would be the one that you were replying to from me.

God does use, cause, and even creates evil circumstances

Again, a muddying of the waters.

Here we see that evil comes from the heart, and it needs to be washed out.

This is a direct result of our seperation from God that we inherited from Adam. This is a seperation that is not only from God, but from the only source of good. This is also an act of judgement. This is why it is said "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5). Until God moves, man is left to himself. Without God, the source of all good, (John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Isaiah 64:6) man can only produce evil. This is the foundation for the doctrine known as total depravity, or better, total inability. God must move first (John 6:44). Calvin touched on this in the quote I gave from my previous post.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Cor 12: 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

This is speaking of Gods providence. I agree that He governs all things. This is very different from saying that He effectually caused them.

"Worketh all" would fall into the catagory of what you would call "does use [all]".

Dave

Hi Dave,

Sorry you can call it muddying the waters if you want, but it is quite relevant to know that God uses evil for his purposes. God has a plan from the beginning, before creation even existed. That plan involves using evil. God did not have to modify his plan to counteract evil because his created humans "malfuncitoned" and decided to sin. God is not running a damage control center, forever coming up with a new plan B that uses our evil ways for Good. No. God's plan intended there to be evil. He uses it for ultimately good purposes - so we will be humbled and learn righteousness. In that sense, God is the cause of the evil in this world - because he has declared everything from beginning to end (Isaiah 46:10), brings it all to pass (Isaiah 46:11), and operates all according to his will (Eph 1:11).

From your response I can't really tell what you think the real source of evil is. You say that without God, man can only produce evil. True, but who is it that designed man that way? Why did God design men to be evil? Or did men make themself evil?

What is the true source or cause of evil then in your opinion?

1. Humanity

2. The human heart

3. Human "free will"

4. Satan

5. God

As I see it, the problem with options 1 to 4, is that God created each of these with complete foreknowledge of what would happen. God has complete foreknowledge and is all-knowing and all-powerful. So, before God even created humanity, he knew that humanity would sin and do evil.

Now to say that God created humans knowing full well that they would perpetrate evil, yet God didn't intend for them to do evil, seems to be a bit of a contradiction on God's part. If God didn't intend for there to be evil and sin, surely God would have come up with a better plan. Obviously he did intend to create us this way because that is the way we are. Here is the scripture that confirms this:

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Just to emphasize what Romans 8:20 says - we were made this way - subject to vanity - NOT WILLINGLY. We are in bondage of corruption because God put us in bondage of corruption.

Many believe that Adam & Eve were "very good" or even "perfect" when God created them in the garden of Eden. The obvious question is: if they were perfect, then why did they sin!? Creation was indeed "very good" - it was very good for what God intended the creation to do.

Genesis 3:6 proves that God intended for Adam & Eve to sin and eat of the tree of knowledge. Here it is again if you missed it in my previous post:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now look at 1 John 2:

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve committed every major category of sin (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life) before she even partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil! She saw:

1. the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh)

2. it was pleasent to the eyes (lust of the eyes)

3. it was desired to make one wise (pride of life)

The important thing to understand here: Eve did not get her sin nature by eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil. She already had her sin nature. God intended it because that is the way he made Eve.

Let me know what you think,

Legoman