JCISGD

The person who has the affair has the responsibility to do what it takes for however long it takes to restore the others trust. That means being transparent, and being where and with whom you say you will be at all times. Dr Phil I think this is good counsel, and the fact that you could forgive easily does not mean others can or should. Remember we are all uniquely created and only God knows our hearts fully. Sometimes literally doing unto others as we would want for ourselves doesnt work as we have different needs or ways to handle situations, but rather if we would want them to do to us according to our unique needs, we should extend this to others. Did you really forgive him? why did you have an affair if you knew how much it hurts the other? were you really over the hurts of his affairs? Finally Paul says a christian must not divorce, but if they seperate they must (only do so to sort out the difficulties imo) remain single or reconcile. words in brackets mine. Praying for you.

While I do know some christians who date long term without being tempted into immorality, I agree with Isaiah6:8 on this, and know far more (including myself) who did not. While its not right to blame the method as the cause and those who are self controlled prove it is not, it still remains that many are bringing the name of Christ into ill repute because they dated, and stirred up passions that overcame them. The bible says to flee immorality and does not counsel tempting ourselves by trying to resist it. Josepth had the sense to flee Potiphahs wife instead of showing he had great self control. I mean the Spirit of God was with him, "surely he could have witnessed to her by his self control", and this is the same type of thinking that has lured many into destruction. I have seldom seen a christian win a non christian through dating or marriage without atleast great cost themselves and their walk. Even holding hands brings a connection and arouses feelings, and that may be ok for those who know themselves and what they are involving themselves in, but for many it is only the start of connecting with the wrong person or multiple persons. All intention to arouse feelings by thought, speech, dress or touch before marriage is prohibited under the 7th commandment. "whoever looks to lust, has already committed adultery. The same must apply to any who cause lust. Some may mock such as out dated or prude, but "my people perish from lack of understanding" and I care not if even one is helped by these words.

Can you post writings to prove what the Syrian- Jewish christians did? Justin Martyr among others spent much time showing up the absurdities of these so called gods to the Greeks and pointed only to Jesus as recorded in the gospels. The early church fathers were respected among the christian church, so i find it hard to see that they would be ignored by churches in Greece? http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-hortatory.html Can you post writings of this "greco-church" also? The purpose of this topic was to show actual historic writings for each to make up their own mind and avoid discussion on unproveable assertions, or debates over scriptural interpretations.

THanks Nebula, thats a timely encouragement for me as i feel very tired lately and have not been thankful for His mercies which are new every morning. Its not Gods fault that i go my own way and things go wrong, and He is still worthy of all praise honour and glory forever and always.

Im not scholar, but i was reading the other day that the KJV is taken from different manuscripts than those of say the NIV. Basically it was the other manuscripts that left bits out, rather than the KJV adding bits, but i cant back that up untill i find my source again. Im not KJV only, but i have seen the proof that NIV has ommitted important words and verses.

Hey Joshua, i didnt mean arguements in the negative sense, i welcome all arguement/debate of valid points, but i was also hoping for historical proofs more than each others opinion of what the bible says. IMO the bible is the highest order of proof, peoples interpretations of it are not. Was Justin Martyr part of the Roman Catholic Church? i thought the RCC stated with/after Constantine 365? A.D. I also thought that the early church fathers did not insist on adherence to the RCC to be saved as they do today. I concede that wickedness did creep in as Satan set up his counterfeit church, but i dont know much of earliest times. There have been trust worthy theologians in most generation, surely there are trust worthy writings from those who were converts under Paul or Peter etc? There are writings from pagan writers of every age, are there none from devout christians also?

hi Shalhevet, try ChristianApologetic.org. perhaps. I havnt read it but they have a online book "Christian handbook of reason and insight for scientist and technolist". dont be put off by the first page on logic if seems double dutch to you, it not like that on the other pages. http://www.christianapologetic.org/index.html

The topic was started because some believe that Constantine changed the day from seventh to first, but the early church records show the Lords Day observance was not instituted by man but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. My challenge is for those who believe otherwise to come forward with historical records that prove it.

ahem! Sir Fez, you may be used of God to despence wisdom to me even on the days you are dumber than a box of rocks. as its is not your wisdom i would be listening for. Now that i know your older than me i choose to listen harder for His voice through you. Will i accept everything you say? not if it contadicts what God has already told me. Remember the man of God, 1 Kings 13, killed by a lion for listeniing to the other prophet instead of God.

Sorry Joshua but you have made multiple assertions that are not proof to my mind. This Topic is in danger of ballooning out into arguements that are not within the scope of it. But i will try answer objections not straying too far. You have asked for earlier historical records of first day observance than 250 A.D, but i have already asked for the opposing evidence to even this. The quote you provide at end of your post ^^, is that a quote of someone living in that time ? it appears to me to be commentary and not proven fact or a quote of those times? I wasnt attaching the definition of sabbath as a seventh part occuring after every 6 to Paul, I have asserted that this is the accepted definition and have yet to be shown proof of otherwise. Why God did not have it made known in the bible that the Lords Day is superior to the seventh i cannot say, but there are many things the Holy Spirit leads the church in that are not directly stated in the bible. I would venture to say that those who are grateful for to the Lord for their salvation, and also believe the Lords Day to be in recognition of this, would naturally hold it as superior. Further to this historical records already seen do prove the Lords Day to be the first day of the week. What Paul did does not prove the christians on the whole met in synagogues, and the severe persecutions around that time almost certainly prove they couldnt have. Paul had extra annointing to go into synagogues to refute the Jews and endure the beatings etc. Paul and the other Apostles did not remain in one spot, but travelled often to assist the fledgling churches or start a new work in places without the gospel, what they did is not the rule but the exception. Sorry but the fact the disciples broke bread daily does not prove what you say, and again if anything the fact of persecutions in synagogues tends to prove the opposite. " He took the bread and broke it, saying as often as you come together do this in rememberance of me" Did all meet daily ? and for how long did this continue? At some point life would have had to settled to one day of sabbath, and this being in rememberance of Christ and His work on the cross, would naturally be the Lords Day imo, and is supported by history. Yes the bible is and always will be the most reliable source if interpreted correctly, but we have an impasse since the verses both sides use, cannot be said to be absolute proof of claims, history is an aid not be denied except by dishonesty imo. To each his own day, but imo the sabbath as the seventh day only cannot be substained in the light of all the proofs now available to us, and the charge of a man made change of day, borders on conspiracy theory as it is charge after the fact and the facts do not back this up.

actually all it proves is that the Syrian "church" of the 2nd century was already re-interpreting with a greek spirit. My first question (of many) about what they say is "Was this statement made during or after Origin??" because it was him who introduced "spiritualizing" scripture to bend it into whatever shape they want. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the Lord's Day is anything but the Sabbath. None whatsoever. hi Yod, where is your proof of a "greek spirit" being the reason of this change, or more importantly where are the historical records of the early church keeping the seventh. The bible is both inspired writings and historical record, and all peoples at this time in history had historians who kept records of important persons and they had scribes and keepers that wrote down these things. Luke writes to Theophilus, a historian. Are we to believe that the disciples after the Apostles were not recorded or did not have writings that remain. " [XXXIII...Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection]" Note it says let the slaves work "five days". They are being given two seperate days to observe or perhaps choose from. It also says the "sabbath is on account of creation" and the "Lords Day of the resurrection". I suppose they could be forced to mean they both were on the seventh day, but i think thats stretching the use of language. Those who claim that sabbath is exclusive to and interchangeable with the seventh day now have the difficulty of which tittle belongs to the seventh day, "the sabbath" or "the Lords Day"? You say there is NO evidence, but i think any scholar of language would admit that there is quite strong evidence. Wether this evidence proves it conclusively is another question. This Topic is covering historical records and is not an arguement from the bible as both sides have scriptures they believe prove there arguement, and around and around it goes. I have put forth historical records from the earliest time since the apostles, that show SOME atleast did keep the FIRST day as Lords Day and for the purposes of God. I am asking for those records that show differently and wont be drawn into arguement of biblical verses thanks. God bless.

I look forword to reading it, thanks for the heads up Believer. It mentions Physcological labelling in a preveiw. I read a book i really enjoyed about dishonest speech, which is using words that predjudice others by the mind picture we associate with that word. i.e "hes a tree hugging hippie". Sounds similar, but that book seems to cover vastly more

Life experience has given me few examples to justify the idea that age and wisdom go hand in hand(they certainly haven't in my case), and I think that accepting everything that someone tells you, as the post above seems to suggest , merely because their older than you be it by: years, months, weeks ,days or hours is both naive and dangerous. There are countless examples of those in authority being corrupted by the power they hold such an approach, entwining age and authority, only accentuates that risk of corruption. We should treat all with equal respect, but at the same time feel free to question and at times challenge the assertions of all; as I do now despite the fact that you're two years older than me. hi amor, i shouldve explained myself better in the OP. P.S Ive just seen my error of not putting the words "does NOT mean" in my post you quoted. I will go back and edit. To clarify- Im not suugesting age rules over discernment and discretion or that older persons are not subject to challenge. What im saying is that the Lord showed me of times i did not heed the advice of older persons, even that of my older brother and He was trying to help me through them. When my children were growing up i gave the descision who would sit in the front seat of the car, to the oldest child in the car at the time. This was to teach them that if i was not around the younger were to submit to the older in saftey issues etc. Yes all deserve respect but i myself choose to show greater honour to those even a day older than me, and i believe and have seen the Lord protect me in this way. The Lord can use a donkey to speak, but i also believe in the principles of devine order and authority.

#44 Although Paul speaks of the sabbath being kept, it is keeping a sabbath (seventh part) to observe any day after six consecutive days. The literal keeping of the seventh day only as the sabbath is not possible to any country outside of Israels time zone, and merges with the 6th or the 1st day God created depending on which direction around the globe we go. The reason i objected to the quotes in the COG link is that the writer of that site assigns assertions to them that are not proven. I dont object to the quotes posted as i will then comment on them, but i dont wish to sift through links. #45 [Apostolic Constituitions, written in Syria around 250 A.D. states: XXIII...But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection XXXIII...Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection for the rejoicing upon the seventh period... For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world, the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men.] These Quotes prove that the Lords Day is in fact a seperate day to the seventh day. Also that both days were kept as a sabbath. Who can doubt that the Lords Day ("memorial to creation") is superior to the seventh day ("memorial to creation"), being that it belongs to the new covenant and not the old that needed a better, else why then the latter if the former were sufficent? #46 While it does prove they met daily for breaking bread, it does not prove what the early church did, as only the apostles and a few others would have been able to give up all employments for lengthy extended periods. Nor does it prove that they met in the synagogues for intimate fellowship and free thought. It must be remembered that shortly after these accounts, they were mercilessly persecuted and most fled to other regions. Paul himself was often beaten in the symagogues and left outside for dead, can we believe that they met as a church there? Therefore i suggest the only reliable source we have for knowing which veiw is accurate is the recorded history of the early church. We have historical statements from directly after the apostles generation that the early church met on the Lords Day for each successive generation until the present. see link to early church fathers in #1 We have no historical records of the early church meeting on the seventh alone. These i am asking for if they are available. Im failable, if ive erred or overstepped i hope to be corrected.

Lol Fez that about sizes it up. I think Jake wins. I could never entertain a theology that produced a man like Calvin. "You shall know them by their fruits" http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/servetus.html

exactly Parker, there are false shepherds abounding who have not even got the requirements for serving tables Acts 6:1-3. "filled with the Holy Ghost" And a false gospel is preceeding the great falling away. I need revival, the church needs revival, Lord please change our stony hearts!.

Note: Edited. The word NOT in bold below, was added after posting as i left it out by accident. lol no wonder some were taking issue with me. I do agree its never right to be disrespectful, maybe wrong word choice. But i believe all authority is from God, and this encompasses the younger submitting to the elder. That does not mean accepting everything they say or do, just like to command to honour parents etc. Im not saying young posters dont have wisdom, its just a issue of the place of elders in society imo. I thought i had set up a poll, but looks like i didnt follow instructions.

I cant speak for your country, but looks like theyre trying to pull the wool over the peoples eyes. It seems to be everywhere, the people are groaning as the wicked rule. Government here taxed for pension funds and then it some how isnt there when its needed, and so they ask us to set up private schemes. Big companies are hiding behind faceless corporate images and misleading advertising. Like a picture of a Mac Donalds burger, the reality is disappointing. Its like the money lovers know the time is very short and think they can take it with them?

In His wisdom God dangles some people over the fires of hell so that they truly repent, but this is not His preferred choice as He takes no delight in scaring people, and sometimes this would have the wrong effect. Wordly sorrow for our sins is regret that we got caught and are now paying the consequences, but godly sorrow is not nescessarily an emotion but a revelation of what weve done and a determination to put it right if possible and not do the same again. "The fear of the Lord is clean". Its not confusing and infected, but like a sucessful operation its done and on the way to healing. Does that help i felt led to say it that way?

I am of the belief that i am supposed to show respect to those older than me, also if some one is young i would tread more carefully with them so as not to stumble them, or take into account their life experience. When posting here i find that i do not know what my response should be, i suppose i could PM and ask but thats got drawbacks. Do others think it is relevant to posting on forums? Should this question have been posted to the moderators first? if so please close or delete as desired.

Some people condemn themselves because they think that being tempted is a sin. If you get tempted by the sight of someone attractive but turn away and rebuke the thought, and replace it with the way God would think you will not be sinning. But if we get stuck on a known sin and cant get victory, we will begin to feel unsaved as the accuser of the brethern loves to make accusations to unsettle us. Is good that you no longer love your sin, so seek God for the victory and listen not to accuser. Gods thoughts toward you=

thanks Joshua, i come from a family of debaters, where admiting fault was not done. The Lord is great! Joe your a legend.

Hey dont encourage me too much, you might regret it. The love shown me here has timely warmed my heart, and healed more than a few insecurities. How can i now regret my earlier folly that has opened the door to greater philo love. God bless. In Christ Jesus, Arthur.

Its worth the repenting to see the love that is here on WF, thanks guys.