JCISGD

did you know that the exception Jesus gave is properly translated as fornication and not adultery? this is confirmed by His use of two different words. The KJV says "Whoever divorces except for forncation(Porenia), commits adultery (Mochecia). My spelling might be wrong but you get the gist of it? To allow remmariage makes a nonsense of 1 Cor 7:10+11 and Rom 7:2+3 Paul states that this the Lords command, presummably from Jesus` dirct teaching to him. How can Jesus both allow remarriage and also command husbands and wives not to divorce, but to remain single or reconcile? Again He says "whoever loves me, keeps my commandments" Why also did John the baptist preach against Herods remarriage, even to the loss of his life? Again He says "whoever

Forgot to reply to your point about the head and tail. I agree Christ is our head, but when in reguard to the world or our enemies the bible says we are not to be wagged by the tail, but to be the head.

hi Wingnut, if your at peace with your understanding its not mine to judge. What i meant about repenting was if a christian realises theyve done something wrong and sinned against God, then they need to stop that sin and ask forgiveness, which God will do. Salvation is not licence to sin. It is not conclusive that God allowed divorce, we are only told that Moses allowed it because of hard hearts. In those days men could treat women harshly and it was a mercy to have them "put away" these women rather than keep them resentfully. We do know that in Malachi God says he hates divorce and that Jesus over rules Moses. Those who point to OT practices to condone what they do, fail to realise that those in the old covenant did not have the "Light of the world" with them. When Jesus explained privately to His disciples, what he had said about divorce, they were so shocked they exclaimed "its better not to marry then". They would not have said such things if Jesus had allowed divorce as the Pharisee did.

What can one person do? "One can put a thousand to flight" and "two ten thousand". When we pray down a revival, we can see thousands come into the fold n one day, and when two agree n fervent effectual prayer whole cities can be won. Dont lose heart brothers and sisters, its easy for God. The hard part is subduing and overcomng the world, the flesh and the devil untll the Lord reigns in us, then we WILL see revival on a scale not dreamed of.

The characterstc`s of the adulterous woman are in direct contrast to that of the Prv 31 woman. She is loud, contentious, lacking discretion, cant stay at home and be at peace, gets at her husband like a "continual dripping", " She eats and wipes her mouth, And says, “I have done no wickedness.” she "pulls down her own house" and above all she dose not fear the Lord. Christans, both men and women should check all our beliefs and understandings with God, and keep an ear open for the still quiet voice of the Holy Spirit. It matters not what we beleve, it only matters what God says. Many wll be turned away on the day of addmisson because they would not hear Gods voice to them.

The church is the head and not the tail, and God has always used out numbered people to defeat the wcked and show His power. Its true that the world is in rampant sin because the church has her hands tied behind her back because we have allowed sin into the camp. God will forgive all who repent, but He will not over look it. 2 Chr 7:14 says that for revival, Gods people must first turn from THEIR WICKED ways. While we are happy to feign humility and pray for revival, we are not so happy to think we mght have somethng wicked in our ways that needs repenting of, which is at heart pride. One of those sins in the church is divorce, which is unbelief and hardness of heart. Jesus dd not give adultery as an exception to divorce as many think in Mat 5:32 and 19:9 as these are in clear conflict with the rest of scriptures on the subject and the general tenor of the gospel. I wont be drawn nto arguement about this, study for yourself and seek the Holy Spirt to guide into all truth. If anyone wants to ask genune questions wth an open heart and mind, I suggest we take it to the controversial section.

Does it matter what we believe? Gods word says mracles will follow those who believe Mk 16:15-17. Among other miracles, I saw several people walk from wheel chairs at a T B Joshua crusade in Singapore, but Jesus also said mracles are not proof of salvation of the recipient or the miracle worker. Matt 7:21-23

Howdy Aaron, being from NZ i am often out of step with boards because of timezone, but i try to reply eventually. Feel free to send me a PM if you want.

Early in my walk and as christian and as a previously immoral man, i determined to live free of sexual temptation, but 6 mths into this a "christian" who i accepted a ride from felt he had been shown something by God that he was to tell me. At the time i did not know it, but it was a lie from Satan and a seed that once planted caused many problems to come. In hindsight if i had checked with God, i would have heard His voice and been spared the darkness i endured before recieving light again. what Adam and Eve failed to do, was to take Satans suggestions to God and "Hear Him", but they acted on their own understanding, and we also can be prone to this.

#11 i think i answered the OP in my first post. My position is that husbands and wives do not use Matt: 18:15-17 to settle disputes.

Wernt the Romans were only placating the Pharisee`s demands? Either way its possibly true, as the "love of money" is the root of all kinds of evil.

#7 in that situation i think the police should be contacted, as its not a dispute but a crime. The church leaders should also be made aware of the proceedings and details, and if they try to dismiss, cover up or play down its seriousness, i think it would mean they are in error. Once the abuser has gone through the legal process, they should then be willing to go before the church body as proof of accountability and repentance.

The opposite of legalist, is antinomianist. This is the lawless person, of whom Jesus says does miracles and casts out demons but is not known by Him, and will not enter heaven. Both are wrong and not from God.

hi Fez, yes thats right.

Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. hi ninhao, the Lords instruction in to married believers via Paul in 1 Cor 7:10+11 covers this imo. My thoughts below. A believer must forgive or forfeit heaven, for there is no unforgiveness there. While Mat 18:15-17 is the process for believers to bring disputes into the light, it isnt to force another to accept our way, but a process to bring healing and resolve. Also removing ourselves from judging and leaving our dispute in the hands of God via the elders and body of Christ. It is a temptation in marriage to try to win a dispute by bringing in a third party to agree with us, but the third party in marriage and with other believers is God, who has already told us not take disputes to court.

or in kiwi, "gidday mate". Although New Zealand has changed much over the last 20 yrs and we are a more multi racial country now, and many kiwism`s are in decline i think. But this is i think a global trend? Great to see many familiar faces still here, i hope to bring a far less confrontational face to my posting, "the new improved version" ha ha, but i wouldnt say my veiws on core doctrines have changed much. Ive been sitting under the teaching of a missionary/minister of WCCRM from Nigeria, and although i dont think i represent them well yet, i do hope to i wont do damage to any here or the there, and more importantly to the cause of Christ and His body.

hi 1Peter, iv just signed back into WFs after a break of a year or two? The advice of others to read the systematic theologies of various authors is good and helpful. The rub though is which ones? For me i usually wont read anything from authors who did not live what i want to emulate. Yes Jesus is the only one we are to be transformed into, and the bible is the final authority, but God does use human vessels, else Paul was wrong to say "follow me, as i follow Christ". And the bible says to "give honour where it is due". To me this says we are to learn from those who have by exemplary living, proved their walk with God. The life and systematic theology of Charles G Finney is one such example that God used to enlighten my mind in reguards to many doctrines, and satisfied my mind in reguard to the six/seventh day sabbath doctrines and much more. But when i first came accross his books i thought him to be legalist rubbish, untill 3 times God brought placed a little booklet before my eyes and i was drawn to read. My advice is to read any authors life first and his doctrines second, as the lens to read all teaching is the heart.

Hi Joco, I was raised in an athiest family and lost in my sins for 28 yrs with no interest or knowledge of God. When i understood Jesus was God and died on the cross for my sins to save me from eternal seperation from Him and an eternal torment in hell, i recieved Gods forgiveness and salvation by faith in Jesus. I "became born again" and i knew it, my world was changed in an instant and i knew i was a new person. Without Jesus being God, i would be still lost, probably even dead from my destructive and reckless living. Jesus said we must be "born again" if we want to enjoy heaven with the Father,Son and Holy Spirit who are each God yet one person. Joco i hope im not being intrusive or inappropriate but can i ask? are you born again? how did this happen for you? Feel free to PM me if you prefer as i only ask it here to allow opportunity for others to hear and understand your testimony of salavation through Yahweh.

Do you know that yr op title reads 'unnecessary coping of quoted posts?' Prob not, but it's pretty ironic and in some cases, quite true Lol Sevenseas, atleast someone is awake. I agree heartily, its unnecessary to have to cope with them.

#142 hi Gary, i think we are mostly on the same page. My post was mostly intended for those who deny Christ was God in a human body. Fully man and fully God. My point about God being revealed in graduations, was in terms of the human race. We are in agreement that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, but we are creatures in chronos time and can see that Gods personality was obscured somewhat untill Jesus was sent to us. God bless Arthur.

This too has made me wonder as we know Jesus does not condone unrighteousness. Please dont take my opinions anymore than that, but here is my take on it. A bit like the verse "the knigdom of God encourages violence and the violent take it by force" NKJV ? i think its because we no longer use the word violence in the same context, we also dont undertsand what would be considered shrewd and what would be offensive to our modern sensibility. Words inbtween scripture are mine and are intended as opinion only. Words in brackets are also my undertsanding of meaning. Luke 16 1 "and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions". The manager having almost full discretion to use his masters money was reported as "squandering it". He was not stealing it as such as it was within his power to make such expenditure. 2 "And he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an accounting of your management" The manager was not fired on the spot but given a chance to bring in the books to prove otherwise and may have been given a lessor role if he could show some redeeming factors. "for you can no longer be manager" 3 "The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig ; I am ashamed to beg". He had the option to be a labourer, but saw himself as not strong enough. The other option left was begging. 4"I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the management people will welcome me into their homes". He comes up with a plan that is risky but worth a go, what has he got to lose? 5 "And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, 'How much do you owe my master ?' 6 "And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' 7 "Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe ?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty". He was still effectively manager and decided to use his last moments to cut a deal with what was still within his power. ' 8 "And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly". Here we learn that the manager although unrighteous (wrong in his character and previous choices), made quite a clever choice that surprised even his master. We sometimes hear of things done by another, and wonder that we had not thought of it or seen it in that way. It does not follow that we condone it but we might even praise them (secretley perhaps)or allow it on the grounds of sheer guts. A bit like the men who broke a roof to get their friend to Jesus. "for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. 9 "And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness", Far from condoning the unrighteous manager, Jesus uses the fact that even those of this world will use their cunning to get from each other, to teach us that we should be imaginative and explorative to find ways to win the lost "so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings" 10 "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much ; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. 11 "Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? 12 "And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? The unrighteous (temporal) wealth of this world wil perish, those who use it for selfish gain alone will not be entrusted with true wealth or be given "that which is anothers" (Gods kingdom), nor a place in eternity perhaps?

Good to know its not just me. Thanks for the tips and suggestions Ayin Jade and Morning Glory.

If Jesus is not God, then i know not who is? God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in various ways, but primarily and most fully through Jesus the Son of God. The capital (S) in Son denotes same in character and essence, hence why Jesus says " if you see me, you see the Father" and "no one comes to the Father but through me" Without the Son we are back to the OT where God was largely veiled to us, on account of our sin seperating us and unpaid for.

I agree. It is not my intention to change anyone's mind, although I hope I will. My desire is to present the issue as I believe the Scriptures teach it. I am merely planting seeds of truth. Another may water them, but Yahweh will bring forth the fruit. I know a man that fought against the Sabbath for seven years, but could no longer resist the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you don't walk in it now, you will in the Kingdom as all flesh will worship Yahweh from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another. Nice to talk with you Joco, i think you are a balanced thinker and want to let truth speak for itself. Agree to disagree then, as i am fully persuaded there will be no need for the sabbath in heaven, having put off corruptible flesh, and putting on the incorruptible we will worship Him moment by moment in spirit and in truth. What do you make of Isaiahs account of this earth and heavens being rolled up like a scroll and tossed away? do you think Gods new heavens and earth will be a rehash of these or a complete new thing such as eye has not seen or the mind conceieved? Remember we are told that there will be no sun, as God himself will be our light. Have you read John Bunnyans account of being taken to heaven in the book "Visions of Heaven and Hell" ? not that it proves anything contrary to what you say, its just a really sobering account of hell, and a snippet of thje joys of heaven.

hi all ive been away from WCFs for awhile but decided to pop back in to some topics, with the intention to be more loving and less arguementive. It is frustrating to see that people still quote whole reams of quoted posts just to make a small comment at the bottom. I think this bogs down the quality of posting and makes staying up with who saying what nearly impossible. I feel out of my place and an outsider to say this, but can i suggest that we strive to avoid this? Those with more skill and knowledge of this forum might like to give me and others tips on how to best do this?, but on other sties the post number is only quoted. Would that work here or can someone see good objection to this?